Gary's "Nothing Special" Moab trip

[Gary Lewis]

That would probably be plenty long. And in the unlikely event that you needed to you could hit the button again.

That said, that's the type of elegant solution that I seem to try to avoid more and more as I get older! I used to like going for the solution that is easiest to use and does exactly what you want. But I keep valuing the KISS principal more highly. Like going back to a manual ball valve to switch tanks on Pluto with a separate toggle switch to select which tank the gage reads. It was nice having one switch that did both, until the solenoid valve failed and left me stranded on a freeway, out of gas in spite of having a full tank. This isn't a "mission-critical" function like a tank switching valve, so it's less of a down-side. And I'm not saying that you should balance out trade-offs like this the same way I would! You can go ahead and make your own mistakes rather than making mine:nabble_smiley_beam:

I think it is too late for using the KISS approach on Big Blue.

But, as you pointed out, this isn't mission critical and won't stop me on the side of the road. So I'm not worried about adding another complex solution.

If 10 seconds is enough, and I think it is as well, then I'll plan on going that way. But so far the relay-looking units appear to delay before closing the relay, so they are out. And while the 2nd one I listed should work nicely, I'd rather have ones that are easier to mount - like the relay-looking ones. So the hunt goes on.

And pulling the mount for the O2 gauge to put the switch on gives me an opportunity to paint it black like the one on the other side of the dash.

[Nothing Special]

Speaking to Jeff's comments...

His breakdown of the scenery (and trail) differences is pretty spot-on. Both trails have pretty great scenery, but in different ways, so it's hard to rate them against each other. If I were to do that I think I'd give Potash/Shafer the nod. Most of the time on Sevenmile you aren't very close to the rim (good for the fear factor, less good for the scenery factor), so the views off Shafer are probably better. Plus Shafer overlooks less developed area. Not that anything out there is heavily developed, but I'd rather see a river at the bottom of a canyon than highway 191.

(This brings up a thought I've had if you're driving up Shafer to get to the park. Don't forget to turn around and look behind you! Not that all of the view will be in your mirror, it'll mostly be out the side windows whether you're going up or down. But there can be a tendency to focus ahead, and the best views will be back. So maybe stop at the switchbacks and take the time to smell the roses.)

Other than the vistas from Sevenmile Rim or from Shafer, Sevenmile has views on top of a mesa while Potash has views from near the bottom of a canyon. Again, both are great, but I tend to think cliffs are prettier from below, and being near a river in a desert is pretty cool too.

To Jeff's comment about the views on Potash getting less impressive as you go, that's true if you go down, the way he and I did. But if you're going up the views will get better as you go! That's one reason I think going up to get into Canyonlands would be a better choice than going down to get out. The other is that you're driving the long, rough slog before you're tired out at the end of the day. then when you are tired it's a pretty pleasant drive down highway 313 to get back to town.

Thinking back to the discussions about Canyonlands and Arches...

As I've watched a couple of videos on Shafer Switchbacks I'm starting to feel like you really should drive down it to experience the view the best. That would mean having to enter the park through the main gate, but that line wasn't bad the one time we did it. I'm thinking if you're early enough in the day that won't be too bad (Arches is the park that has the ridiculous lines). It also means either driving out on Potash Road at the end of the day or turning around and going back up Shafer to avoid the rough Potash Road. I think my new recommendation would be to go down Shafer and out Potash at the end of the day. Yeah, it's a rough slog, but it is a nice view, so it's probably worth doing once. If you still want to go up Shafer, I won't really try to change your mind. And no matter which way you go, if you take Potash Road definitely air down!

I've watched a few more videos of the 4WD trails in Arches. I don't think it'll be on this trip, but some time we're going to do an Arches 'wheeling day. I'd go in on Willow Springs Road (aka Willow Flats Road), head up to the Devil's Garden area and spend a little time hiking around there. Then I'd drive up Salt Valley Road to the Tower Arch Road. After seeing Tower Arch I'd head down the trail that's called either Eye of the Whale Arch, or a continuation of the Tower Arch loop. Then I'd head out toward Delicate Arch where I think there's another trail I might explore. (edit to add, that trail is called

). I'd finish up by heading back down the pavement and leaving through the main entrance. But you can also leave the park on Salt Valley Road, and that might be fun too.

The Arches National Park brochure map has some of this. Your guide book probably has Tower Arch (calling it a loop that includes what others call Eye of the Whale).

The Tower Arch Loop might be more than you'd want to do on your own. I haven't been there, but it is listed as "difficult."

is the best I've seen to show it. He talks... a lot, through his videos. I've watched a view of his videos and I can't get a good read on him. His Jeep looks pretty well equipped, but I don't think he has a Rubicon, so it's not geared as low as it might be, and I'm not sure he has lockers. On some easier trails he talks about how technical they are, but he also talks about having done "the Pickle" trail, which is one I'm pretty sure Pluto will never see. Anyway, I say all of that to tell you that I don't know how seriously you should take what he says. But he does say he likes the trail, and you can see it so you can get an idea if you might be willing to do it on your own (keeping in mind that you'll have quite a bit more 'wheeling experience by that time!).

Anyway, just some more food for thought as the trip gets closer. Only 75 days!

[Gary Lewis]

Thinking back to the discussions about Canyonlands and Arches...

As I've watched a couple of videos on Shafer Switchbacks I'm starting to feel like you really should drive down it to experience the view the best. That would mean having to enter the park through the main gate, but that line wasn't bad the one time we did it. I'm thinking if you're early enough in the day that won't be too bad (Arches is the park that has the ridiculous lines). It also means either driving out on Potash Road at the end of the day or turning around and going back up Shafer to avoid the rough Potash Road. I think my new recommendation would be to go down Shafer and out Potash at the end of the day. Yeah, it's a rough slog, but it is a nice view, so it's probably worth doing once. If you still want to go up Shafer, I won't really try to change your mind. And no matter which way you go, if you take Potash Road definitely air down!

I've watched a few more videos of the 4WD trails in Arches. I don't think it'll be on this trip, but some time we're going to do an Arches 'wheeling day. I'd go in on Willow Springs Road (aka Willow Flats Road), head up to the Devil's Garden area and spend a little time hiking around there. Then I'd drive up Salt Valley Road to the Tower Arch Road. After seeing Tower Arch I'd head down the trail that's called either Eye of the Whale Arch, or a continuation of the Tower Arch loop. Then I'd head out toward Delicate Arch where I think there's another trail I might explore. (edit to add, that trail is called

). I'd finish up by heading back down the pavement and leaving through the main entrance. But you can also leave the park on Salt Valley Road, and that might be fun too.

The Arches National Park brochure map has some of this. Your guide book probably has Tower Arch (calling it a loop that includes what others call Eye of the Whale).

The Tower Arch Loop might be more than you'd want to do on your own. I haven't been there, but it is listed as "difficult."

is the best I've seen to show it. He talks... a lot, through his videos. I've watched a view of his videos and I can't get a good read on him. His Jeep looks pretty well equipped, but I don't think he has a Rubicon, so it's not geared as low as it might be, and I'm not sure he has lockers. On some easier trails he talks about how technical they are, but he also talks about having done "the Pickle" trail, which is one I'm pretty sure Pluto will never see. Anyway, I say all of that to tell you that I don't know how seriously you should take what he says. But he does say he likes the trail, and you can see it so you can get an idea if you might be willing to do it on your own (keeping in mind that you'll have quite a bit more 'wheeling experience by that time!).

Anyway, just some more food for thought as the trip gets closer. Only 75 days!

75 days, but who's counting?

I hadn't said, but I'd been thinking that down the Shafer Switchbacks is the way to do it. And all that means is that we'll have to remember that we have Potash Road to traverse at the end of the day, so will just have to know when to head back. And airing down is not a problem. (Which reminds me, I have enough hose and air to help you air up when the times come.)

And as we've discussed elsewhere, I'd already sorta planned to take Willow Springs/Flats road. And I've just watched Cache Valley Road video, which looks easy. But only got started on the 2nd video and saw how long it is so will finish it up tomorrow.

However, I'm not sure how remote we'll want to get by ourselves, so that may govern a bit of the planning. On the other hand, we'll have a lot more 'wheeling under our belts by then, so may be ready to do it.

Anyway, more on that tomorrow. Thanks!

Oh yes, I clicked on the map link and it opened the same map I already had open.

[Gary Lewis]

75 days, but who's counting?

I hadn't said, but I'd been thinking that down the Shafer Switchbacks is the way to do it. And all that means is that we'll have to remember that we have Potash Road to traverse at the end of the day, so will just have to know when to head back. And airing down is not a problem. (Which reminds me, I have enough hose and air to help you air up when the times come.)

And as we've discussed elsewhere, I'd already sorta planned to take Willow Springs/Flats road. And I've just watched Cache Valley Road video, which looks easy. But only got started on the 2nd video and saw how long it is so will finish it up tomorrow.

However, I'm not sure how remote we'll want to get by ourselves, so that may govern a bit of the planning. On the other hand, we'll have a lot more 'wheeling under our belts by then, so may be ready to do it.

Anyway, more on that tomorrow. Thanks!

Oh yes, I clicked on the map link and it opened the same map I already had open.

Ok, I'm watching the 43 minute Tower Arch Loop video and will comment as I go. But first for a summary of my thoughts.

I think that would be a good excursion for two or more vehicles. Not that I saw anything that would be a challenge or dangerous, but the remoteness could be an issue if you did have trouble. My Garmin has inReach and my iPhone has an emergency capability, but it might take people quite a while to get to you.

I think we'd be happy to consider that if you wanted to do so, but we'd also be happy to just come in via Willow Springs and poke around the park instead of exploring the backroads.

You are right, he does talk a LOT. He seems to have very large tires but not a terribly-low gear ratio. Don't hear much from the engine in M1 and 4-Low.

The comment about deep sand is interesting as I don't have recovery boards and, as he said, there's nothing to get hold of for self recovery. So if doing that by ourselves I think I'd want to have recovery boards along.

At 10:00 he says "Going to get out here and see where this trail goes." Not sure if he was meaning that he's not sure as he crests the hill, which my camera should help with, or if he just wants to give us a good view. And it was an awesome view.

At 13 - 15 minutes he goes down a rocky section, and at 14 minutes he said the "older couple" in the tour vehicle looked terrified.

The passageway at 23 minutes sure looks narrow, but the arches look awesome! But a mountain lion? And rattlesnakes??

26:34 Sign says "4WD Road" but FunTreks calls it Tower Arch & Trails OffRoad app calls it Eye Of The Whale.

31:00 "Don't come out here alone."

40:00 Intersection with Willow Springs, which they take.

42:22 they talk about having gotten into the park at 9:00 and it was 2:45 then and they weren't quite out of the park. So that was certainly an all-day excursion. But quite doable.

[Nothing Special]

Ok, I'm watching the 43 minute Tower Arch Loop video and will comment as I go. But first for a summary of my thoughts.

I think that would be a good excursion for two or more vehicles. Not that I saw anything that would be a challenge or dangerous, but the remoteness could be an issue if you did have trouble. My Garmin has inReach and my iPhone has an emergency capability, but it might take people quite a while to get to you.

I think we'd be happy to consider that if you wanted to do so, but we'd also be happy to just come in via Willow Springs and poke around the park instead of exploring the backroads.

You are right, he does talk a LOT. He seems to have very large tires but not a terribly-low gear ratio. Don't hear much from the engine in M1 and 4-Low.

The comment about deep sand is interesting as I don't have recovery boards and, as he said, there's nothing to get hold of for self recovery. So if doing that by ourselves I think I'd want to have recovery boards along.

At 10:00 he says "Going to get out here and see where this trail goes." Not sure if he was meaning that he's not sure as he crests the hill, which my camera should help with, or if he just wants to give us a good view. And it was an awesome view.

At 13 - 15 minutes he goes down a rocky section, and at 14 minutes he said the "older couple" in the tour vehicle looked terrified.

The passageway at 23 minutes sure looks narrow, but the arches look awesome! But a mountain lion? And rattlesnakes??

26:34 Sign says "4WD Road" but FunTreks calls it Tower Arch & Trails OffRoad app calls it Eye Of The Whale.

31:00 "Don't come out here alone."

40:00 Intersection with Willow Springs, which they take.

42:22 they talk about having gotten into the park at 9:00 and it was 2:45 then and they weren't quite out of the park. So that was certainly an all-day excursion. But quite doable.

Some thoughts on your thoughts:nabble_smiley_beam:

Ok, I'm watching the 43 minute Tower Arch Loop video and will comment as I go. But first for a summary of my thoughts.

I think that would be a good excursion for two or more vehicles. Not that I saw anything that would be a challenge or dangerous, but the remoteness could be an issue if you did have trouble. My Garmin has inReach and my iPhone has an emergency capability, but it might take people quite a while to get to you.

I'm certainly not going to tell you (or him for that matter) what safety precautions to take. And the general rule is to never 'wheel alone, but I almost always violate that rule. But I wouldn't feel this is remote enough to be a concern. Top of the World is WAY more remote than this, as far as that goes. And he talked about seeing tour vehicles, so it seems likely that someone would show up if you needed them to.

I think we'd be happy to consider that if you wanted to do so, but we'd also be happy to just come in via Willow Springs and poke around the park instead of exploring the backroads.

I wouldn't COMPLETELY rule it out for day 5 of this trip. But I think we're going to leave this for another year. As far as what you might do, I'm just offering info for your consideration. Obviously you do what the two of you will enjoy!

You are right, he does talk a LOT. He seems to have very large tires but not a terribly-low gear ratio. Don't hear much from the engine in M1 and 4-Low.

The comment about deep sand is interesting as I don't have recovery boards and, as he said, there's nothing to get hold of for self recovery. So if doing that by ourselves I think I'd want to have recovery boards along.

I've heard it said that if you need recovery boards to get unstuck that you weren't actually stuck. Personally I've never had a need for them. And I don't see anything there that would really qualify as "deep sand." The year I 'wheeled in Sand Hollow I saw what that was, and Moab doesn't seem to have any. Aired down wide all-terrains should be plenty. But again, I'm not telling you to do this on your own. I'm confident you could do it, but you'll have to see where your confidence is by that time to know if it will be fun or just too stressful.

At 10:00 he says "Going to get out here and see where this trail goes." Not sure if he was meaning that he's not sure as he crests the hill, which my camera should help with, or if he just wants to give us a good view. And it was an awesome view.

If I recall correctly, my interpretation of that was that he wasn't sure which way the trail went and what might be old tracks that went off trail. I think the trail was a little less well defined right there. But my interpretation could be wrong. And whatever reason he stopped, he didn't seem to have any concerns about getting going again, so that's good.

At 13 - 15 minutes he goes down a rocky section, and at 14 minutes he said the "older couple" in the tour vehicle looked terrified.

The passageway at 23 minutes sure looks narrow, but the arches look awesome! But a mountain lion? And rattlesnakes??

I think sometimes the tour drivers try to scare passengers! And I'm sure there are lions and snakes around there. But there's been a bear in my suburban neighborhood, and mountain lion sightings outside of towns not far from my house. I'm not going to stress over hearing about it there. Maybe try to be a little careful about where you walk (regarding snakes), but lots of tourists go there all the time and I don't here much about lions or snakes, so I think the encounters are pretty rare.

26:34 Sign says "4WD Road" but FunTreks calls it Tower Arch & Trails OffRoad app calls it Eye Of The Whale.

31:00 "Don't come out here alone."

40:00 Intersection with Willow Springs, which they take.

42:22 they talk about having gotten into the park at 9:00 and it was 2:45 then and they weren't quite out of the park. So that was certainly an all-day excursion. But quite doable.

Like I said, don't go alone is always good advice, but it's often not followed. And as remote as this seems, remember that it is in the busiest National Park in the country! There are a lot of people not that far away!

The different names for the road could get a bit confusing. But it doesn't seem like there are all that many intersections, so I don't think it'll be hard to know where you're going.

 

[Gary Lewis]

Some thoughts on your thoughts:nabble_smiley_beam:

Ok, I'm watching the 43 minute Tower Arch Loop video and will comment as I go. But first for a summary of my thoughts.

I think that would be a good excursion for two or more vehicles. Not that I saw anything that would be a challenge or dangerous, but the remoteness could be an issue if you did have trouble. My Garmin has inReach and my iPhone has an emergency capability, but it might take people quite a while to get to you.

I'm certainly not going to tell you (or him for that matter) what safety precautions to take. And the general rule is to never 'wheel alone, but I almost always violate that rule. But I wouldn't feel this is remote enough to be a concern. Top of the World is WAY more remote than this, as far as that goes. And he talked about seeing tour vehicles, so it seems likely that someone would show up if you needed them to.

I think we'd be happy to consider that if you wanted to do so, but we'd also be happy to just come in via Willow Springs and poke around the park instead of exploring the backroads.

I wouldn't COMPLETELY rule it out for day 5 of this trip. But I think we're going to leave this for another year. As far as what you might do, I'm just offering info for your consideration. Obviously you do what the two of you will enjoy!

You are right, he does talk a LOT. He seems to have very large tires but not a terribly-low gear ratio. Don't hear much from the engine in M1 and 4-Low.

The comment about deep sand is interesting as I don't have recovery boards and, as he said, there's nothing to get hold of for self recovery. So if doing that by ourselves I think I'd want to have recovery boards along.

I've heard it said that if you need recovery boards to get unstuck that you weren't actually stuck. Personally I've never had a need for them. And I don't see anything there that would really qualify as "deep sand." The year I 'wheeled in Sand Hollow I saw what that was, and Moab doesn't seem to have any. Aired down wide all-terrains should be plenty. But again, I'm not telling you to do this on your own. I'm confident you could do it, but you'll have to see where your confidence is by that time to know if it will be fun or just too stressful.

At 10:00 he says "Going to get out here and see where this trail goes." Not sure if he was meaning that he's not sure as he crests the hill, which my camera should help with, or if he just wants to give us a good view. And it was an awesome view.

If I recall correctly, my interpretation of that was that he wasn't sure which way the trail went and what might be old tracks that went off trail. I think the trail was a little less well defined right there. But my interpretation could be wrong. And whatever reason he stopped, he didn't seem to have any concerns about getting going again, so that's good.

At 13 - 15 minutes he goes down a rocky section, and at 14 minutes he said the "older couple" in the tour vehicle looked terrified.

The passageway at 23 minutes sure looks narrow, but the arches look awesome! But a mountain lion? And rattlesnakes??

I think sometimes the tour drivers try to scare passengers! And I'm sure there are lions and snakes around there. But there's been a bear in my suburban neighborhood, and mountain lion sightings outside of towns not far from my house. I'm not going to stress over hearing about it there. Maybe try to be a little careful about where you walk (regarding snakes), but lots of tourists go there all the time and I don't here much about lions or snakes, so I think the encounters are pretty rare.

26:34 Sign says "4WD Road" but FunTreks calls it Tower Arch & Trails OffRoad app calls it Eye Of The Whale.

31:00 "Don't come out here alone."

40:00 Intersection with Willow Springs, which they take.

42:22 they talk about having gotten into the park at 9:00 and it was 2:45 then and they weren't quite out of the park. So that was certainly an all-day excursion. But quite doable.

Like I said, don't go alone is always good advice, but it's often not followed. And as remote as this seems, remember that it is in the busiest National Park in the country! There are a lot of people not that far away!

The different names for the road could get a bit confusing. But it doesn't seem like there are all that many intersections, so I don't think it'll be hard to know where you're going.

I’ve been stuck where “recovery boards” would have been helpful. But that was in 1965 in a 47 Chevy 2wd. We were going fast when hit the beach and got 100 yards out before bogging down to the axles. We found old boards in a drift pile and got it out 6’ at a time. Dig, place the boards, drive 6’ & sink, dig, rinse, repeat. It was a loooong day.

So if I were doing that loop by myself I might use it as an excuse to buy recovery boards. But two vehicles could use each other to winch out - even with the weight difference between Pluto & Big Blue.

But Janey and I will keep it in mind.

As for the pause at the top of the ridge, my thought was that he needed to see where the trail went. My brother and I had the same problem in Ouray, many times. Which was one reason I got the cameras.

On the trail names, I may throw another in the mix. I have the Garmin Montana and need to see what trails it shows and what it calls them. Plus I have Gaia, All Trails, & onX Offroad. So even if Garmin doesn’t have a trail I can download it from one of the others and import it. But I haven’t started that yet should do, soon.

[Nothing Special]

The trail I'd REALLY like to take you on is Hell's Revenge. I've been trying to find some good videos to include to show you why you should do it, but honestly I'm not finding anything that I think will help. Hell's Revenge is the BEST place to see the other-worldly beauty of the uniqueness of the Moab area, but no pictures or video can do it justice. And if you spend too much time looking at videos of Hell's Revenge I think you'll mostly see the steepness of the hills (which will tend to scare you off) but you can't see the traction you get that makes those hills so much fun....

OK, I might have found one. I do present this with some trepidation, because Hell's Revenge is a scary trail and you'll see that in

. But I think this video also does a pretty good job of showing how difficult the trail isn't. They have a Grand Cherokee (with traction control, but no flex and no ground clearance), a crew cab Tacoma with open diffs and a Wrangler. Two of those vehicles would have a lot more trouble with this trail than Big Blue, and they both make it pretty easily. Yes, they do have a great spotter, but I have no doubt that we can get Big Blue over this with no trouble.

Skip over from 13:07 to 25:13. That's Hell's Gate, which is an optional obstacle. You can watch it if you want to be entertained, but don't worry about it. You won't be doing that!

From 34:00 to 35:52 is Dragon's Tail, possibly the scariest section of the trail. His verbal description is probably a bit of hyperbole, but you might feel a lot like what he says! But as scary as it is, as you watch this from the safety of your living room, keep an eye on how easy it really is. Coming off the top is spooky because you can't see the trail. But I didn't have any real trouble (although I did have some nerves!) doing this the first time we were there. And Pluto's hood is a billboard! Even without your camera you wouldn't have it much, if any harder than I did and with your camera it will be easy to know you're on the right line. Because all you need to do here is stay in your lane. And with the black tire marks it's really easy to see where that is. It's like that two-lane highway metaphor I keep coming back to. If you get out of your lane you could be in real trouble. So no problem, you just stay in your lane!

So take a look at this. And probably watch it a few times. Hopefully it will give you a better understanding of what the trail is. We'll still wait until after doing Sevenmile Rim and Top of the World to decide if you think you can have fun on Hell's Revenge. That experience will be helpful in making this call too, but I want you to have a picture of Hell's Revenge as well.

[Gary Lewis]

The trail I'd REALLY like to take you on is Hell's Revenge. I've been trying to find some good videos to include to show you why you should do it, but honestly I'm not finding anything that I think will help. Hell's Revenge is the BEST place to see the other-worldly beauty of the uniqueness of the Moab area, but no pictures or video can do it justice. And if you spend too much time looking at videos of Hell's Revenge I think you'll mostly see the steepness of the hills (which will tend to scare you off) but you can't see the traction you get that makes those hills so much fun....

OK, I might have found one. I do present this with some trepidation, because Hell's Revenge is a scary trail and you'll see that in

. But I think this video also does a pretty good job of showing how difficult the trail isn't. They have a Grand Cherokee (with traction control, but no flex and no ground clearance), a crew cab Tacoma with open diffs and a Wrangler. Two of those vehicles would have a lot more trouble with this trail than Big Blue, and they both make it pretty easily. Yes, they do have a great spotter, but I have no doubt that we can get Big Blue over this with no trouble.

Skip over from 13:07 to 25:13. That's Hell's Gate, which is an optional obstacle. You can watch it if you want to be entertained, but don't worry about it. You won't be doing that!

From 34:00 to 35:52 is Dragon's Tail, possibly the scariest section of the trail. His verbal description is probably a bit of hyperbole, but you might feel a lot like what he says! But as scary as it is, as you watch this from the safety of your living room, keep an eye on how easy it really is. Coming off the top is spooky because you can't see the trail. But I didn't have any real trouble (although I did have some nerves!) doing this the first time we were there. And Pluto's hood is a billboard! Even without your camera you wouldn't have it much, if any harder than I did and with your camera it will be easy to know you're on the right line. Because all you need to do here is stay in your lane. And with the black tire marks it's really easy to see where that is. It's like that two-lane highway metaphor I keep coming back to. If you get out of your lane you could be in real trouble. So no problem, you just stay in your lane!

So take a look at this. And probably watch it a few times. Hopefully it will give you a better understanding of what the trail is. We'll still wait until after doing Sevenmile Rim and Top of the World to decide if you think you can have fun on Hell's Revenge. That experience will be helpful in making this call too, but I want you to have a picture of Hell's Revenge as well.

Ok, I'll watch the video, but a little later this morn as Janey will be beside me in a couple of minutes and I don't think I'm ready to show her. At least not until I've seen it

[Nothing Special]

Ok, I'll watch the video, but a little later this morn as Janey will be beside me in a couple of minutes and I don't think I'm ready to show her. At least not until I've seen it

Probably a good plan!

[BigBrother-84]

Hell's Revenge is a scary trail and you'll see that in this video. But I think this video also does a pretty good job of showing how difficult the trail isn't.

Someday this trail will be asphalted, with a nice and smooth rubber pavement.