Gary's "Nothing Special" Moab trip

[Nothing Special]

I'm watching the videos, in order, and will comment:

• Your Top Of The World: YIKES! Ok, I'll get, and hopefully keep, an open mind. But are you sure Big Blue is capable of doing that? Some of those places look like the long wheelbase may cause problems.

• TrailRecon: Yes, the white Jeep may be on 33's, but doesn't he still have more ground clearance? Anyway, he made it so maybe I can? But that down stretch looks tough!

• Regina, of TrailRecon, driving TOTW: No chance I'm showing Janey that. "Brand new 392 engine under the hood, which I enjoyed listening to growl and rumble all day long." "This is probably the hardest trail you'll ever 'wheel... And actually on the way down it is much harder." The stuff at 13 minutes looks like more than BB could do? Those big tires look like they make a big difference, especially in the yuk.

Ok, I'm not sure about TOTW, but let's see what the first day is like. May Big Blue, and I, are better than I think.

Thanks for the open mind!

It's been a few years, but what I said right after I was there was:

.... And it's this section that makes me not recommend this trail for beginners. Or more accurately, it's the trail up to this section that makes me not recommend it. This section isn't really that hard. I'm sure a truck like Big Blue could do it, either driving up the right side (two pictures up) or driving and maybe winching up the left side (picture above). But as I noted, Lesley didn't want me to take what ended up being the easier route. Gary, I'm actually sure that you and Big Blue could get up this obstacle. I just think it'll take more experience before you (and Janey) would decide to go forward rather than turn around at this point. As I've said before, there's no shame in tuning around, but in this case it would be a shame to have traveled the last hour and a half up a rough, not scenic, and not fun trail, only to have to turn around and repeat it without getting to do the rest of the trail (I'm not counting the two hour rond-trip on highway 128 as a loss because it's worth doing anyway). So if you have the time and want to explore, sure, take a look at Top of the World. Or if you look at the pictures above and think "I can do that!", go for it! I just don't want anyone upset with me for wasting 3 hours of their vacation.

Anyway, if you get beyond that first obstacle, from there to the top it's a constant stream of challenging ledges. Nothing too extreme, but consistently fun! I did need the front locker one more time, as well as a slight bump once to get the back tires up (no pictures of that, Lesley was shooting video at that time). But that one bump and the one winch were the only times in the entire week I didn't crawl all of the obstacles....

So yes, I'm (pretty) sure Big Blue can do this trail.

What down stretch are you talking about from the 2018 Trail Recon video? If it's from 15:40 - 18:50, that's the part of the trail I think we'll skip. We can turn around at the top and go back the way we came up rather than do that part of the trail (which is the hardest part from what I've seen on YouTube, I didn't do that part of the trail). As for the ground clearance, I wouldn't rule out having to stack some rocks now and then. But from what I remember when I was there and what I've seen in videos since, I'm confident that Big Blue can do it.

In the 2023 Trail Recon video I don't recall the quote exactly, so I could be wrong. But I think they said it was the hardest trail she had done, not the hardest she would ever do. It's a hard trail no doubt, but it's not THAT hard. I think it will be a good level where you'll feel a little (or a lot?) trepidation coming up to the obstacles, but then a big rush when you see that you can do them. And as the trail goes on the trepidation will wane and it'll be fun! That's my hope anyway!

Likewise I don't recall the exact quote about going down being harder, but I can speculate two possibilities. One is that they might be talking about the alternate route, which does seem to be harder (but we won't be doing). The other is that dropping off a ledge can be scarier than going up it. It's not harder, but if you pick the wrong line going up you get stuck, back up and try another. If you pick the wrong line going down backing up might not be a good option, so you might have to make do with your first choice. But as I said above, the obstacles on this trail are low risk. You're not doing to fall off a cliff or roll over or anything. Worst case is you come down hard on your sliders or rear quarter or something. And I think it won't be too hard to avoid even that.

The 13 minute mark is one place I think they are taking a harder line than they would need to. The Gladiator clearly does this as his tires are swallowed by the ledge at first, and then when he moves a couple feet to the right he makes it up pretty easily. Then Regina goes up where she just saw him succeed, but if you look about 10' to her right it looks like the ledge might be only about a foot or so high. I might be surprised and we might find the trail is a lot harder than I remember. But I haven't seen anything that make me expect that. (and yes, big tires do make a big difference, which is why they try to do the extra credit lines)

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks for the open mind!

It's been a few years, but what I said right after I was there was:

.... And it's this section that makes me not recommend this trail for beginners. Or more accurately, it's the trail up to this section that makes me not recommend it. This section isn't really that hard. I'm sure a truck like Big Blue could do it, either driving up the right side (two pictures up) or driving and maybe winching up the left side (picture above). But as I noted, Lesley didn't want me to take what ended up being the easier route. Gary, I'm actually sure that you and Big Blue could get up this obstacle. I just think it'll take more experience before you (and Janey) would decide to go forward rather than turn around at this point. As I've said before, there's no shame in tuning around, but in this case it would be a shame to have traveled the last hour and a half up a rough, not scenic, and not fun trail, only to have to turn around and repeat it without getting to do the rest of the trail (I'm not counting the two hour rond-trip on highway 128 as a loss because it's worth doing anyway). So if you have the time and want to explore, sure, take a look at Top of the World. Or if you look at the pictures above and think "I can do that!", go for it! I just don't want anyone upset with me for wasting 3 hours of their vacation.

Anyway, if you get beyond that first obstacle, from there to the top it's a constant stream of challenging ledges. Nothing too extreme, but consistently fun! I did need the front locker one more time, as well as a slight bump once to get the back tires up (no pictures of that, Lesley was shooting video at that time). But that one bump and the one winch were the only times in the entire week I didn't crawl all of the obstacles....

So yes, I'm (pretty) sure Big Blue can do this trail.

What down stretch are you talking about from the 2018 Trail Recon video? If it's from 15:40 - 18:50, that's the part of the trail I think we'll skip. We can turn around at the top and go back the way we came up rather than do that part of the trail (which is the hardest part from what I've seen on YouTube, I didn't do that part of the trail). As for the ground clearance, I wouldn't rule out having to stack some rocks now and then. But from what I remember when I was there and what I've seen in videos since, I'm confident that Big Blue can do it.

In the 2023 Trail Recon video I don't recall the quote exactly, so I could be wrong. But I think they said it was the hardest trail she had done, not the hardest she would ever do. It's a hard trail no doubt, but it's not THAT hard. I think it will be a good level where you'll feel a little (or a lot?) trepidation coming up to the obstacles, but then a big rush when you see that you can do them. And as the trail goes on the trepidation will wane and it'll be fun! That's my hope anyway!

Likewise I don't recall the exact quote about going down being harder, but I can speculate two possibilities. One is that they might be talking about the alternate route, which does seem to be harder (but we won't be doing). The other is that dropping off a ledge can be scarier than going up it. It's not harder, but if you pick the wrong line going up you get stuck, back up and try another. If you pick the wrong line going down backing up might not be a good option, so you might have to make do with your first choice. But as I said above, the obstacles on this trail are low risk. You're not doing to fall off a cliff or roll over or anything. Worst case is you come down hard on your sliders or rear quarter or something. And I think it won't be too hard to avoid even that.

The 13 minute mark is one place I think they are taking a harder line than they would need to. The Gladiator clearly does this as his tires are swallowed by the ledge at first, and then when he moves a couple feet to the right he makes it up pretty easily. Then Regina goes up where she just saw him succeed, but if you look about 10' to her right it looks like the ledge might be only about a foot or so high. I might be surprised and we might find the trail is a lot harder than I remember. But I haven't seen anything that make me expect that. (and yes, big tires do make a big difference, which is why they try to do the extra credit lines)

Interesting! I forgot about that discussion.

Yes, the down the stretch is the section between 15:40 - 18:50. That really looks tough. Happy to skip that.

And you may be right about the quote, but he was still saying it is really tough. I was just saying that I'm not sure I want to show that bit to Janey.

You are right about the lines at the 13 minute mark. They weren't trying the easy lines, with the Gladiator clearing taking the harder line to prove a point. So yes, we should be able to find an easier line.

Anyway, I'm working on opening up my mind. Not there yet, but I'm seeing glimmers of light.

[Nothing Special]

Interesting! I forgot about that discussion.

Yes, the down the stretch is the section between 15:40 - 18:50. That really looks tough. Happy to skip that.

And you may be right about the quote, but he was still saying it is really tough. I was just saying that I'm not sure I want to show that bit to Janey.

You are right about the lines at the 13 minute mark. They weren't trying the easy lines, with the Gladiator clearing taking the harder line to prove a point. So yes, we should be able to find an easier line.

Anyway, I'm working on opening up my mind. Not there yet, but I'm seeing glimmers of light.

The trail I'd REALLY like to take you on is Hell's Revenge. I've been trying to find some good videos to include to show you why you should do it, but honestly I'm not finding anything that I think will help. Hell's Revenge is the BEST place to see the other-worldly beauty of the uniqueness of the Moab area, but no pictures or video can do it justice. And if you spend too much time looking at videos of Hell's Revenge I think you'll mostly see the steepness of the hills (which will tend to scare you off) but you can't see the traction you get that makes those hills so much fun. So I think all I can you is refer you back to what I said about it right after our trip in 2019. Here's a link to the full post, but here's an excerpt about the trail:

.... Hell's Revenge is very close to Moab (about a 5 minute drive from our campground). And I have to agree with the "experts" I consulted with, as well as the book, if you're in Moab, Hell's Revenge is a must-do trail! It ended up being both Lesley's and my favorite trail of the trip! The terrain is so unlike anything we typically see. And experiencing the traction you get on slickrock is amazing! Throughout the week there were several places that I couldn't walk on, but the Bronco could just putt up or down easily! It took a few of these for the butterflies to settle down to the point where it was just fun, but a few butterflies are fun too! There were a few places that made me pick a line carefully, but nothing I would consider difficult for me or my vehicle (we took the bypasses on all of the named obstacles: Hell's Gate, the Escalator and Tipover Challenge, as well as all of the hot tubs). Overall we spent about 5 hours on the trail, including time for lunch, watching a few others play, and taking 187 pictures!....

As much as I'd like you to experience Hell's Revenge, I'm thinking it might be a bit of a long shot. I know Big Blue can do it, and I'm sure that with some spotting you will be able to drive it. But I'm not sure that by day three you and Janey will be ready to believe that. I'm not giving up! As we see how things are going there are probably a couple obstacles that we can take a look at without committing to the entire trail and see what you think about taking it on. But I also want to make sure that the trip is fun for both of you, and if you aren't ready to have fun on Hell's Revenge then it won't be fun.

So the back-up trail for day three is Fins 'N Things. Here's a link to my trail report from 2019, here's my report from 2021 and here's an excerpt from the 2019 report:

.... Our back-up trail for this day was Fins & Things, so we headed over there. This trail is near Hell's Revenge, and is pretty similar in many ways, but different too. Fins & Things is probably easier, but there are more just kind of rough trail sections between "Moab type" trail sections. It was a good trail, and we're glad we did it, but if someone is there with a limited amount of time I'm not sure I'd recommend doing both of these. But then again, if I'm glad we did them both maybe I should be recommending people do both. Sorry, I can't make up my mind on that.

So if you are going to do only one of these, which should it be? If you're up to it I'd say Hell's Revenge. If you're less sure, definitely Fins & Things. It's not that much easier, but the scariest fins are at the end instead of the beginning, and you can bypass them. Plus there are numerous "escape routes" if you decide you don't want to do the whole thing.

We only took 35 pictures on this trail. Part of the reduction from the 187 pictures from Hell's Revenge was likely that this was day 2 and that was day 1. But also Lesley rode more on Fins & Things and she takes more pictures when she's out walking. As I said above, she walks when the trail makes her nervous, so that tells you something about the two trails too (although the fact that this was day 2 I'm sure had an impact on that as well)....

So we'll keep Fin 'N Things in our back pocket.

[Gary Lewis]

The trail I'd REALLY like to take you on is Hell's Revenge. I've been trying to find some good videos to include to show you why you should do it, but honestly I'm not finding anything that I think will help. Hell's Revenge is the BEST place to see the other-worldly beauty of the uniqueness of the Moab area, but no pictures or video can do it justice. And if you spend too much time looking at videos of Hell's Revenge I think you'll mostly see the steepness of the hills (which will tend to scare you off) but you can't see the traction you get that makes those hills so much fun. So I think all I can you is refer you back to what I said about it right after our trip in 2019. Here's a link to the full post, but here's an excerpt about the trail:

.... Hell's Revenge is very close to Moab (about a 5 minute drive from our campground). And I have to agree with the "experts" I consulted with, as well as the book, if you're in Moab, Hell's Revenge is a must-do trail! It ended up being both Lesley's and my favorite trail of the trip! The terrain is so unlike anything we typically see. And experiencing the traction you get on slickrock is amazing! Throughout the week there were several places that I couldn't walk on, but the Bronco could just putt up or down easily! It took a few of these for the butterflies to settle down to the point where it was just fun, but a few butterflies are fun too! There were a few places that made me pick a line carefully, but nothing I would consider difficult for me or my vehicle (we took the bypasses on all of the named obstacles: Hell's Gate, the Escalator and Tipover Challenge, as well as all of the hot tubs). Overall we spent about 5 hours on the trail, including time for lunch, watching a few others play, and taking 187 pictures!....

As much as I'd like you to experience Hell's Revenge, I'm thinking it might be a bit of a long shot. I know Big Blue can do it, and I'm sure that with some spotting you will be able to drive it. But I'm not sure that by day three you and Janey will be ready to believe that. I'm not giving up! As we see how things are going there are probably a couple obstacles that we can take a look at without committing to the entire trail and see what you think about taking it on. But I also want to make sure that the trip is fun for both of you, and if you aren't ready to have fun on Hell's Revenge then it won't be fun.

So the back-up trail for day three is Fins 'N Things. Here's a link to my trail report from 2019, here's my report from 2021 and here's an excerpt from the 2019 report:

.... Our back-up trail for this day was Fins & Things, so we headed over there. This trail is near Hell's Revenge, and is pretty similar in many ways, but different too. Fins & Things is probably easier, but there are more just kind of rough trail sections between "Moab type" trail sections. It was a good trail, and we're glad we did it, but if someone is there with a limited amount of time I'm not sure I'd recommend doing both of these. But then again, if I'm glad we did them both maybe I should be recommending people do both. Sorry, I can't make up my mind on that.

So if you are going to do only one of these, which should it be? If you're up to it I'd say Hell's Revenge. If you're less sure, definitely Fins & Things. It's not that much easier, but the scariest fins are at the end instead of the beginning, and you can bypass them. Plus there are numerous "escape routes" if you decide you don't want to do the whole thing.

We only took 35 pictures on this trail. Part of the reduction from the 187 pictures from Hell's Revenge was likely that this was day 2 and that was day 1. But also Lesley rode more on Fins & Things and she takes more pictures when she's out walking. As I said above, she walks when the trail makes her nervous, so that tells you something about the two trails too (although the fact that this was day 2 I'm sure had an impact on that as well)....

So we'll keep Fin 'N Things in our back pocket.

I would have thought that Fin 'N Things is the plan for Day 3 and Hell's Revenge is in the back pocket. Or, did I miss something?

So right now you are thinking of:

• Day 1: Sevenmile Rim

• Day 2: Top of the World

• Day 3: Fin 'N Things if you don't convince me to try Hell's Revenge

Do I have that right?

I still need to take the on-line test, review the other videos a few times, and then sit down and show some of them to Janey. I feel like I'm getting way behind.

 

[Nothing Special]

I would have thought that Fin 'N Things is the plan for Day 3 and Hell's Revenge is in the back pocket. Or, did I miss something?

So right now you are thinking of:

• Day 1: Sevenmile Rim

• Day 2: Top of the World

• Day 3: Fin 'N Things if you don't convince me to try Hell's Revenge

Do I have that right?

I still need to take the on-line test, review the other videos a few times, and then sit down and show some of them to Janey. I feel like I'm getting way behind.

We're still 118 days out (but who's counting ) so you're not behind.

I'm still calling Hell's Revenge plan A for day three, with Fins 'N Things as plan B. Optimism!

And yes, those are the trails I'm thinking about.

[Gary Lewis]

We're still 118 days out (but who's counting ) so you're not behind.

I'm still calling Hell's Revenge plan A for day three, with Fins 'N Things as plan B. Optimism!

And yes, those are the trails I'm thinking about.

Bob - You just mentioned departure angle in a side conversation and we then agreed to have a discussion about it here. But I have a question with regard to that before I start measuring. (And, by the way, it may be this evening before I reply as am trying to get some stuff done in the shop during the day and then, while sitting with Janey with the TV off since she can't see it right now, I'll do some posting.

What do you think about making a special "skid plate"? Maybe a piece of plate welded to a drawbar that takes some pressure off the hitch itself as it is the low spot instead of the bumper. I have several extra drawbars that don't get used, so...

I'm planning on taking several pics and measurements and then posting later. But if a special skid plate would help then I'll mock that up and take pics of it as well.

 

[Nothing Special]

Bob - You just mentioned departure angle in a side conversation and we then agreed to have a discussion about it here. But I have a question with regard to that before I start measuring. (And, by the way, it may be this evening before I reply as am trying to get some stuff done in the shop during the day and then, while sitting with Janey with the TV off since she can't see it right now, I'll do some posting.

What do you think about making a special "skid plate"? Maybe a piece of plate welded to a drawbar that takes some pressure off the hitch itself as it is the low spot instead of the bumper. I have several extra drawbars that don't get used, so...

I'm planning on taking several pics and measurements and then posting later. But if a special skid plate would help then I'll mock that up and take pics of it as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by a skid plate welded to a draw bar taking pressure off the hitch. Doesn't anything attached to the draw bar put pressure directly on the hitch? And with more leverage than if the drawbar wasn't there?

That said, something in the receiver can definitely take pressure off the BUMPER. While that may not be a good choice for on-road use (getting rear-ended against a "drop bumper" in the receiver will bend you frame more easily than getting hit in the bumper that's in line with the frame), it might be a good choice off road, where the impacts are probably more likely, but not nearly as hard.

In the side conversation I mentioned that I've seen some people put a "stinger" in the receiver to protect the spare tire on a Jeep. Below is a picture of that. I know Big Blue doesn't have his spare there, but it gives you an idea of what others have done. (With the spare on a Jeep, or Pluto for that matter, being mounted to the body, dragging it can lead to body damage where the carrier attaches. The stinger hits before the spare and lets you slide off the rock without trying to pull your spare tire off the vehicle.)

Another thing I've seen is people have a pintle hook in the receiver. The bottom of a pintle hook is curved, so it's less likely to hook on something than a conventional ball mount. And while it sticking out more hurts your departure angle, that still might be a net gain if it will easily support the weight of the rear of the truck and will slide smoothly off the rock. (remember how I bent one end of Pluto's rear bumper back last year) And a pintle hook has the added benefit of being a great recovery point if it's needed.

Those are my thoughts. I'm not sure what would be best for Big Blue. But I'm thinking that it won't be possible to completely keep him from dragging his tail, so it's at least worth considering what would be the best thing to drag.

[Gary Lewis]

I'm not sure what you mean by a skid plate welded to a draw bar taking pressure off the hitch. Doesn't anything attached to the draw bar put pressure directly on the hitch? And with more leverage than if the drawbar wasn't there?

That said, something in the receiver can definitely take pressure off the BUMPER. While that may not be a good choice for on-road use (getting rear-ended against a "drop bumper" in the receiver will bend you frame more easily than getting hit in the bumper that's in line with the frame), it might be a good choice off road, where the impacts are probably more likely, but not nearly as hard.

In the side conversation I mentioned that I've seen some people put a "stinger" in the receiver to protect the spare tire on a Jeep. Below is a picture of that. I know Big Blue doesn't have his spare there, but it gives you an idea of what others have done. (With the spare on a Jeep, or Pluto for that matter, being mounted to the body, dragging it can lead to body damage where the carrier attaches. The stinger hits before the spare and lets you slide off the rock without trying to pull your spare tire off the vehicle.)

Another thing I've seen is people have a pintle hook in the receiver. The bottom of a pintle hook is curved, so it's less likely to hook on something than a conventional ball mount. And while it sticking out more hurts your departure angle, that still might be a net gain if it will easily support the weight of the rear of the truck and will slide smoothly off the rock. (remember how I bent one end of Pluto's rear bumper back last year) And a pintle hook has the added benefit of being a great recovery point if it's needed.

Those are my thoughts. I'm not sure what would be best for Big Blue. But I'm thinking that it won't be possible to completely keep him from dragging his tail, so it's at least worth considering what would be the best thing to drag.

Here's what I'm thinking. The bottom of the receiver is 6 1/4" below the bumper, so will be the first to drag. And there's a lip on the receiver where the the drawbar goes in that will drag on rocks. But if I were to put a drawbar in that has a flat plate welded to it then it could take the load off that lip.

In the pic you can see how it would be with that drawbar, and the bottom of the plate would be ~7" below the bumper. But the measurements I'm talking about would include figuring out what the departure angle is and determining from that what height the plate should be at in order to give the max clearance but still prevent getting hung up on the front of the receiver.

Boy, this is a really good case for the bumper I've been planning 'cause it doesn't have anything below it. Yes, I might need the stinger you pictured to protect the spare tire, but that's easy.

So is that hitch going to cause a problem? Maybe I should remove it for the trip and move the backup lights & trailer connector elsewhere for the interim.

[Nothing Special]

Here's what I'm thinking. The bottom of the receiver is 6 1/4" below the bumper, so will be the first to drag. And there's a lip on the receiver where the the drawbar goes in that will drag on rocks. But if I were to put a drawbar in that has a flat plate welded to it then it could take the load off that lip.

In the pic you can see how it would be with that drawbar, and the bottom of the plate would be ~7" below the bumper. But the measurements I'm talking about would include figuring out what the departure angle is and determining from that what height the plate should be at in order to give the max clearance but still prevent getting hung up on the front of the receiver.

Boy, this is a really good case for the bumper I've been planning 'cause it doesn't have anything below it. Yes, I might need the stinger you pictured to protect the spare tire, but that's easy.

So is that hitch going to cause a problem? Maybe I should remove it for the trip and move the backup lights & trailer connector elsewhere for the interim.

I think I'd leave the receiver on, but don't put anything in it. It being below the bumper will protect the bumper. And although it does hurt departure angle quite a bit, it shouldn't really cause any trouble when it drags.

I wouldn't be worried about that lip catching on things. It's not a very big hook, so it won't catch anything too solidly.

What am I seeing in the very foreground of the picture? It looks like a long rectangle piece hanging down, with maybe a little green at the bottom? If that's hanging below the receiver frame it looks like it will be likely to drag.

I can't guarantee that nothing else will hit, but the trailer plug is close to the receiver, so that's pretty well protected. The lights are close behind the receiver frame and don't hang below it, so they are pretty well protected. The ends of the bumper are probably the most vulnerable. They're quite a bit above the receiver, but if there's a taller rock near the end of the bumper that the receiver misses, then the bumper can hit. We can try to be careful about that.

[Gary Lewis]

I think I'd leave the receiver on, but don't put anything in it. It being below the bumper will protect the bumper. And although it does hurt departure angle quite a bit, it shouldn't really cause any trouble when it drags.

I wouldn't be worried about that lip catching on things. It's not a very big hook, so it won't catch anything too solidly.

What am I seeing in the very foreground of the picture? It looks like a long rectangle piece hanging down, with maybe a little green at the bottom? If that's hanging below the receiver frame it looks like it will be likely to drag.

I can't guarantee that nothing else will hit, but the trailer plug is close to the receiver, so that's pretty well protected. The lights are close behind the receiver frame and don't hang below it, so they are pretty well protected. The ends of the bumper are probably the most vulnerable. They're quite a bit above the receiver, but if there's a taller rock near the end of the bumper that the receiver misses, then the bumper can hit. We can try to be careful about that.

LOL! The thing sticking down is a magnetic work light as it is dark under the truck and I was having trouble taking a picture. It won't cause a problem as it'll fall off easily if I forget it.

As for the receiver, I really shouldn't take it off as that plus this is my rear recovery point. Which brings up the question of how many recovery points I ought to have. I'd planned to use that in both the rear and the front. Do I need more? The front is via the front hitch which uses the same four G8 bolts that hold the winch on, but they aren't that big.