Ballooning torque converter?

[Pete Whitstone]

Does anybody here have first-hand experience at a failing/ballooned torque converter? What are the symptoms and what does it feel like?

I re-used the converter from my 95 donor truck, and someone (Gary I think) mentioned there was a problem with those torque converters failing, I think by ballooning. Anybody had this happen to them? How common was this?

 

[mat in tn]

it takes a lot to balloon a TC. what are the symptoms that make you think this?

[Pete Whitstone]

it takes a lot to balloon a TC. what are the symptoms that make you think this?

I'll discuss symptoms below. First, what makes me suspect the converter is that it is the one part on the truck that was carried over from the 4x4 donor truck as is. Everything else (engine, trans, rear end, etc.) was rebuilt or replaced when the project was done. The project was to covert my 81 2wd to 4x4 using parts from a 1995 351w/E4OD 4x4. And someone (Gary?) mentioned that these converters had some problems. So it's just suspicion of an unknown part that leads me to ask about it.

The symptom is that under light to moderate throttle, the truck behaves great. Good acceleration, good shifts. However, mash the throttle and it just goes nowhere. The engine RPMs just won't climb. It's like suddenly the engine power is being sapped, and it's not being used to propel the truck.

I could see that if the engine zinged up in RPMs but that power was not being used to move the truck, that a bad converter could do that. But sapping power without the engine RPMs coming up, I don't understand.

When in neutral/park, the engine revs up strongly, so it's only under load that this problem occurs.

[Gary Lewis]

I'll discuss symptoms below. First, what makes me suspect the converter is that it is the one part on the truck that was carried over from the 4x4 donor truck as is. Everything else (engine, trans, rear end, etc.) was rebuilt or replaced when the project was done. The project was to covert my 81 2wd to 4x4 using parts from a 1995 351w/E4OD 4x4. And someone (Gary?) mentioned that these converters had some problems. So it's just suspicion of an unknown part that leads me to ask about it.

The symptom is that under light to moderate throttle, the truck behaves great. Good acceleration, good shifts. However, mash the throttle and it just goes nowhere. The engine RPMs just won't climb. It's like suddenly the engine power is being sapped, and it's not being used to propel the truck.

I could see that if the engine zinged up in RPMs but that power was not being used to move the truck, that a bad converter could do that. But sapping power without the engine RPMs coming up, I don't understand.

When in neutral/park, the engine revs up strongly, so it's only under load that this problem occurs.

You may be referring to Bill/85lebaront2's statement here of "Sounds good sir, I mentioned the ballooning because it is a known issue with the E4OD converters."

Or Steve83's response here of "Older 4R70W TCs (around '98-05 IIRC) were known to balloon, but mainly in police Crown Vics that had higher shift points, or in other Panthers that were driven hard (allowed to upshift at WOT). The TC was redesigned to eliminate the problem. I've never heard of an E4OD TC ballooning, and I don't think a stock flexplate could stop it anyway."

EDIT: Read the rest of the story starting here: https://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Dad-s-Truck-Build-tp7104p25383.html

[85lebaront2]

I'll discuss symptoms below. First, what makes me suspect the converter is that it is the one part on the truck that was carried over from the 4x4 donor truck as is. Everything else (engine, trans, rear end, etc.) was rebuilt or replaced when the project was done. The project was to covert my 81 2wd to 4x4 using parts from a 1995 351w/E4OD 4x4. And someone (Gary?) mentioned that these converters had some problems. So it's just suspicion of an unknown part that leads me to ask about it.

The symptom is that under light to moderate throttle, the truck behaves great. Good acceleration, good shifts. However, mash the throttle and it just goes nowhere. The engine RPMs just won't climb. It's like suddenly the engine power is being sapped, and it's not being used to propel the truck.

I could see that if the engine zinged up in RPMs but that power was not being used to move the truck, that a bad converter could do that. But sapping power without the engine RPMs coming up, I don't understand.

When in neutral/park, the engine revs up strongly, so it's only under load that this problem occurs.

If the engine feels like it is not coming up in rpm under load, and the truck is very sluggish in both forward and reverse, the problem may be in the torque converter. A bad stator one way clutch will do just that. See here for an explanation of how they work: https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/torque-converter.htm Without the stator working all you have is a fluid coupling like the original Hydra-Matics had. Having driven a number of the old Mercedes-Benz fluid coupling automatics (and rebuilt a bunch of them) I know how sluggish the lack of torque multiplication can be.

The ballooning issue was due to the pressure used to engage the lockup clutch, the original lockup converters were in the 50s and even the Packard Ultramatic didn't have a problem, even though their 1955-56 V8s could twist the transmission input shaft between their torque and the high stall speed of the converter.

[Pete Whitstone]

If the engine feels like it is not coming up in rpm under load, and the truck is very sluggish in both forward and reverse, the problem may be in the torque converter. A bad stator one way clutch will do just that. See here for an explanation of how they work: https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/torque-converter.htm Without the stator working all you have is a fluid coupling like the original Hydra-Matics had. Having driven a number of the old Mercedes-Benz fluid coupling automatics (and rebuilt a bunch of them) I know how sluggish the lack of torque multiplication can be.

The ballooning issue was due to the pressure used to engage the lockup clutch, the original lockup converters were in the 50s and even the Packard Ultramatic didn't have a problem, even though their 1955-56 V8s could twist the transmission input shaft between their torque and the high stall speed of the converter.

I hadn't thought to try flooring it in reverse. I will try that.

The key thing to remember here though, is that under part throttle conditions (say, less than a third), everything feels fine. Not sure if that conflicts with what you are describing or not.

There is one other potential problem in the mix here. That is that I have a standalone engine management computer, and a standalone trans controller computer. However, they share a TPS signal. While each system appears to receive a valid TPS percentage on their respective displays, I am wondering how much interference there is with each system from the other. And whether that interference increases with greater throttle openings.

I did discover that there is a filtering device you can put between the two systems, and it's provided by the trans controller company (US shift/Baumann). And it specifically lists the engine controller I am using (Edelbrock Pro Flo 4) as one of the systems it is compatible with. It will be here tomorrow and I can eliminate that potential problem from the mix. I'm hoping it's the $100 filter with zero installation hassle, and not the $900 converter with a huge installation hassle.

[mat in tn]

I hadn't thought to try flooring it in reverse. I will try that.

The key thing to remember here though, is that under part throttle conditions (say, less than a third), everything feels fine. Not sure if that conflicts with what you are describing or not.

There is one other potential problem in the mix here. That is that I have a standalone engine management computer, and a standalone trans controller computer. However, they share a TPS signal. While each system appears to receive a valid TPS percentage on their respective displays, I am wondering how much interference there is with each system from the other. And whether that interference increases with greater throttle openings.

I did discover that there is a filtering device you can put between the two systems, and it's provided by the trans controller company (US shift/Baumann). And it specifically lists the engine controller I am using (Edelbrock Pro Flo 4) as one of the systems it is compatible with. It will be here tomorrow and I can eliminate that potential problem from the mix. I'm hoping it's the $100 filter with zero installation hassle, and not the $900 converter with a huge installation hassle.

having multiple modifications like you describe does confuse matters a little.at least for me:nabble_laughing-25-x-25_orig:

however, the way you describe the behavior it seems to me that the engine is not getting enough power like it has low fuel delivery. that could be showing up if the trans is not being allowed to downshift or unlock the converter in any way. does the engine ever stall when coming to a stop? that would be symptomatic of a stuck converter. running in neutral takes very little fuel vs trying to move the truck.

[Pete Whitstone]

having multiple modifications like you describe does confuse matters a little.at least for me:nabble_laughing-25-x-25_orig:

however, the way you describe the behavior it seems to me that the engine is not getting enough power like it has low fuel delivery. that could be showing up if the trans is not being allowed to downshift or unlock the converter in any way. does the engine ever stall when coming to a stop? that would be symptomatic of a stuck converter. running in neutral takes very little fuel vs trying to move the truck.

No, it never stalls coming to a stop. I am pretty sure that all the basic engine parameters are within spec. Here is a screen capture of an acceleration that shows the problem. No sound, but you can see the throttle percentage to see when I got on and off the gas. This is from a dead stop. Note that the throttle percentage says around 60%, but I think I was harder on the gas than that. But you can see that the fuel pressure, timing, etc all looks ok. But for the duration of being on the gas, the RPM never really changes.

One weird thing is the "Inj Duty" number. I assume it is in percentage, but it never goes past about 20. But this system is designed to support 500hp and my engine probably only has the capability to produce a little over half that. And is certainly not producing the HP that it should be, so maybe that's not surprising.

[85lebaront2]

I hadn't thought to try flooring it in reverse. I will try that.

The key thing to remember here though, is that under part throttle conditions (say, less than a third), everything feels fine. Not sure if that conflicts with what you are describing or not.

There is one other potential problem in the mix here. That is that I have a standalone engine management computer, and a standalone trans controller computer. However, they share a TPS signal. While each system appears to receive a valid TPS percentage on their respective displays, I am wondering how much interference there is with each system from the other. And whether that interference increases with greater throttle openings.

I did discover that there is a filtering device you can put between the two systems, and it's provided by the trans controller company (US shift/Baumann). And it specifically lists the engine controller I am using (Edelbrock Pro Flo 4) as one of the systems it is compatible with. It will be here tomorrow and I can eliminate that potential problem from the mix. I'm hoping it's the $100 filter with zero installation hassle, and not the $900 converter with a huge installation hassle.

Pete. once you are rolling, the torque converter simply acts as a fluid coupling. If the stator clutch is slipping it will always act like a fluid coupling. There is a stall speed specification, but it is dependent on two major factors, one of which is the engine condition the other being the actual stall ratio of the converter. Since we have absolutely no idea what kind of power your engine is actually putting out that could be part of the issue.

The possibility of "crosstalk" between the systems is a possibility. I don't know how those systems handle it, but Chrysler for a long time used an engine computer and a transmission computer that shared a number of inputs (TPS, RPM) primarily.

If the converter clutch were sticking on, it would act like forgetting to push the clutch in when coming to a stop, but if it were starting to engage as the rpm came up it would feel like a bad stator clutch. ie dragging.

I don't know what year E4OD nor what year valve body it has, but there are a number of detail changes between 1988 and 1994. then a major change in 1995 regarding the EPC protection diodes on the solenoids were moved to the ECM from the solenoid body. You need to know if the Baumann controller has the protection diodes in it or not. If it does it should be no problem, it isn't when using a 1995 up Ford ECM on an older E4OD solenoid body, but the opposite will cause problems.

[Pete Whitstone]

Pete. once you are rolling, the torque converter simply acts as a fluid coupling. If the stator clutch is slipping it will always act like a fluid coupling. There is a stall speed specification, but it is dependent on two major factors, one of which is the engine condition the other being the actual stall ratio of the converter. Since we have absolutely no idea what kind of power your engine is actually putting out that could be part of the issue.

The possibility of "crosstalk" between the systems is a possibility. I don't know how those systems handle it, but Chrysler for a long time used an engine computer and a transmission computer that shared a number of inputs (TPS, RPM) primarily.

If the converter clutch were sticking on, it would act like forgetting to push the clutch in when coming to a stop, but if it were starting to engage as the rpm came up it would feel like a bad stator clutch. ie dragging.

I don't know what year E4OD nor what year valve body it has, but there are a number of detail changes between 1988 and 1994. then a major change in 1995 regarding the EPC protection diodes on the solenoids were moved to the ECM from the solenoid body. You need to know if the Baumann controller has the protection diodes in it or not. If it does it should be no problem, it isn't when using a 1995 up Ford ECM on an older E4OD solenoid body, but the opposite will cause problems.

The engine and transmission are both 1995, from the donor truck. They are also both freshly rebuilt, and I have no reason to believe either is malfunctioning in any way. However, I did the rebuild on both so anything's possible. The engine is strong enough to squeal the tires from a stop.

The transmission had a shift kit put in during the rebuild. The solenoid pack was also replaced with a new one.

I will have to check with Baumann about the EPC protection diodes. But they advertise their product as compatible with all years of E4OD, so I would think they are in there. What does EPC stand for in this case?

I should get the filter device today and will give it a try and report back. Thanks!