Gary Lewis

Just met with Billy Young at Young's Performance Differential. He's maybe not quite my age, but close. Knows his stuff from what I can tell, and given the number of Broncos, Jeeps, etc sitting around he's worked on everything. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything he suggested. The D60's his friend has, 2 ball joint and 1 king pin, are priced at $1400/ea and have not been rebuilt. So, I may be headed to OKC to pick up the other one. Anyway, I should strip off the axles and hubs and bring him the housing and diff. He'll go through it for $400 to $600 depending on what parts are needed and install the locker. He really did mean to use the existing F250 springs. Said one of the problems with the F250 suspensions is that you have only 1 1/2" of wheel travel. (Duh!) But going to a D60 fixes that part and the F250 springs work nicely. Or, I could go with F350 springs like I suggested, but they are stiffer and you won't have as good of ride. But then he got into using other springs in addition to the F250 springs, and I got lost. I'm still thinking if you have to buy springs buy SD springs. Locker: He really liked what I told him about the Ox. He's not all that fond of the ARB and the complexity, air leaks, boring a bearing cap, drilling a hole for the air line, etc. So he really liked the idea of the cover having the mechanism. And, he loved the idea that if all else fails you can run a bolt in to get the wheels locked. (He says he cautions people that once they've used the ARB to get through the tough stuff make sure NOT to tear up the air lines or they can't get back.) In a bit I'll be going to 4WD Parts and will report back on that.

I've only had it for one year, and only used it on the one week-long trip out to Ouray that I told you all about here. So I'm not thinking that my experience gives any info on long-term reliability. But as I said above, one thing I like about it is that it's completely mechanical. As you probably know, it's shifted by a fork that's mounted to the diff cover (so no OX available for TTB or 9" which don't have diff covers). So there are no electrical connections (like e-locker has) or air seals (like ARB has) inside the diff. Everything in the diff is mechanical. Mechanical stuff can wear, but barring catastrophic breakage (which could happen to any diff), it doesn't tend to suddenly not work like a broken electrical connection or blown seal can. And again, I don't have any data that says e-locker or ARB are unreliable (and if I ever put anything in D-50 TTB in my F-25o it'll probably be one of those two). But I was attracted to the inherent simplicity of the OX. Yes, going with the built-in air actuated cover I do now have an air seal that could fail. But it's in the cover, so it's a simple R&R job if it does blow, not requiring me to pull out the diff. And with the "drive-away lock" that OX has I can run a bolt into the air fitting boss in the cover and manually lock it if needed as a temporary trail fix. As far as your guy saying the ARB is a pain to set up, I haven't heard that before. The only thing I can think of is that it's hard to get the air line routed and hooked up, because I can't imagine it's any harder to physically install and set up (but maybe I don't have a good enough imagination?). But as you read about my OX install, I certainly didn't find it easy to do. I blamed that on me rather than the OX, but having only done the one, I can't say that another diff wouldn't have been easier. I don't know for sure, but I'd think that F-350s could have been had with sway bars. Thinking about carrying a slide-in camper, or towing a big fifth wheel I'd think people would want / need the option (unless the track bar stiffens it up so much that it doesn't need it, but I doubt that's the case). Oh yes, I vividly remember your trip report. And, I cannot wait to do much of it myself. Hence the rationale for the upgrades to Big Blue. And, I also remember what you said about the simplicity of the Ox, but had missed that the air mechanism is on the cover, so glad you mentioned it. And given what he said about the ARB and how far you have to go to get to the o-rings, I'm going Ox. Thanks much for the heads-up. As for the sway bar, they did have them. And, our page (Suspension & Steering/Sway Bars) has the illustrations below, and the bars and mounts are completely different. Which won't really hurt my feelings as mine are disconnected since they make the ride even worse.

There are only two mentions of "13K802" in the catalog and they are both black in color. So this ain't it. But, that grain was used on vans, not pickups. It is not Rosewood. However, it will work.

Yes, blue grommet is DS-II. See if this helps. But this is just the starter relay and I'd be surprised if that's where the problem is.

There are multiple contacts in the ignition switch and they seem to make/break at different times. For instance, I've seen many trucks that the ignition circuit would make when coming back to Run but the accessory circuit wouldn't unless you rolled the key back toward Off a bit. So if it could do that then you might still have ignition when the accessories are off. On the starter relay wiring, do you have DS-II or EEC? I can blow that up and post it if it would help.

LOL! Let us know how that works with Holly. By the way, how's the house in Owasso? We've had 8" of rain in 24 hours and it is STILL coming down. And many people I know in Owasso made several trips to their storm shelters last night.

I want to be clear. I don't think $500 is an unreasonable fee to go though and recondition a drive axle. (seals, bad bushings/bearings, etc..) But (edit) $1900 for a fully functional D60 seems too much to me. Hang in there. My last glance at the NWS doppler looked like OKC and west of Tulsa were getting hammered. Jim - I agree. I'll go to OKC and get the D60 for $840 before I pay anything like $1400 - for a well-used axle. But, I hope to go by and talk to him today to see if maybe I misunderstood. However, we may not go until afternoon as the rain continuing. I've never, ever seen this much rain. Last night our creek was 101% full. The water was up to and slightly over the banks, and we stood in the water running into it to try and get a pic. But pitch blackness isn't easily penetrated with a DeWalt light, nor "filmed" well with an iPhone. So I don't have much to show for that jaunt. However, our back fence is still standing, which is a miracle. A few years ago the creek got up like this and coated the chain-links with leaves and then pushed it down. So I'm pleasantly surprised that it is still standing - although it is still too dark to see the creek itself. And, there's only one convoluted way to get from Skiatook to Tulsa. Highway 20 is closed on the east side of town, and will be for several days because Bird Creek is 8' above flood stage and has yet to crest. And the low lands to the south are flooded. So we have to go west to the dam, south across it, and then back east to the road south. AND IT IS STILL POURING!

I didn't find E5TZ-1015-B in the catalog. Plenty of E5UZ-1015-B, but not T.

Hey, I'm in your debt, big time. Happy to send you one or two. But let me check to ensure it/they seem to work.

How long have you had your Ox? I'm more interested in it than the ARB. If I am piecing this together then I think I'd like to go with SD springs and the RSK. In for a penny, in for a pound. If I'm going to do this I'd better do it right, with something like the Ox. You are also thinking like I am - I can install the track bar and if it seems to be limiting travel I can pull it for the trails. Can surely create a quick disconnect of some kind. It is POURING! And, we just had another tornado warning pop up. Our TV is via satellite and it is out, so I'm watching via the internet. But the line of storms goes southwest to Abilene, TX. Gonna be a long night. Oh yes, what about sway bars? I have them disconnected as they really hurt the ride. But would they even connect to an F350 axle?

No experience rebuilding them, just removing them. Probably have a spare or two. Want one?

A wood spacer should work well. Lots of people use rubber fuel line. Are you going with a metal line? What metal?

Any chance that the ignition switch isn't coming back to Off? Did you pull the positive battery cable to stop it?

It doesn't. Therein lies another problem. You have three options. - U-Bolt flip and no panhard bar - Panhard bar with replacement or stock passenger U-Bolt plate and driver's side U-Bolt flip - No flip kit, 100% stock with the driver's side U-Bolt plate. Jim - I understand what you are saying. We are thinking alike. Shaun - Here is the stuff that David found. Seems complete - right?

You guys are really watching things! Just got a text from Chris saying he now understands why I have the safe room in the shop. And you are seeing it as well. Fortunately they just lifted the tornado warning, although we are still in a watch until 1:00 AM. But, we are certainly in a flood warning. I posted a video of the creek behind the shop at about noon today on FB. It rarely has water in it but lately it has been running about 3" deep and 10" wide. Today it was probably 3' deep and 10' wide. Yes, really. On the panhard rod, that was my thinking as well. Was curious what you thought.

No. Here's what the HVAC/HVAC Systems page and the Part Numbers tab says:

With the U bolt flip kit, you will not need either of the U-bolt plates, the driver's side being the removable one and the passenger side being the one that is welded on. Most passenger side U-bolt plates are corroded past usability, so if you have a corroded axle, you'll more than likely be cutting it off anyway for a replacement. Rather than buy the replacement from Sky, you can just remove both plates and run U-bolts just like the rear axle. That keeps the threaded ends of the U-bolts pointing up rather than down like factory, which keeps them from catching on obstacles. The only downside is that you have to trim one notch into the webbing of the pumpkin, which really isn't that big of a deal if done right. Shaun - Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. Get the flip kit awa the u-bolts. Add the SD springs and Sky's kit and it'll bolt together. However, with the flip kit where does the panhard rod attach? You might talk me into the piecemeal approach after all.

I was surprised about the springs as well. Perhaps I misunderstood? Maybe he was saying the F350 springs would fit the F250 perches? As for the $1400 axles, maybe that price is after they've been gone through? The one in OKC is $840, so $1400 might be about right for one already to use. We are planning on going into Tulsa tomorrow, although given the weather we are seeing right now who knows what is going to happen tomorrow. Anyway, I do want to talk to 4WD Parts and may also go by to see Billy. Not that I'm buying into what he was selling, but I'm not confident enough with my notes/understanding that I want to clear things up. What was your take on the panhard bar?

Welcome!!! On the pics, there are two ways. If they are of sufficient density to look good large, you can edit your post and put width="100%" in the code. I've copied the URL of your pic and done the "Insert Image" step. Then I added the width info and forced it to be 100%. You can see the effects, below, and the code looks like this, although I left the "" off: And, you can see that the bit-density isn't quite enough to give a good pic at that size. But you can easily edit your post and make it 75 or 80% and see if that works.

Good luck!

Driver's side U bolt plate is unnecessary with a u-bolt flip. Also, here's your panhard bracket, brand new with no rust like a junkyard or parts truck would have. HOWEVER, since you seem pretty insistent on trying to get every single part in one shot, I would agree with Jim and say that YOUR best option is to just find a complete parts truck. One piece at a time works great for Johnny Cash and I, but I don't think it's the best route with your intentions. Shaun - Thanks. But you brought up the u-bolt flip idea a bit ago and I didn't follow up. Will do, but if you have a link it would save me time. And, what are the benefits? As for the panhard bracket, that may come in handy. But David came up with a bunch of the parts on ebay, including that bracket, the left-hand u-bolt bracket, and the shock brackets. So, the bits and pieces are available. But, I may not be as sold on getting all the parts in one shot as you think. Or, maybe I'm waffling. I did a lot of calling around today and want to capture the notes here, and some of that may change my mind. Harmon 4wd: Adam sent me to Billy Young's 4WD for parts, but we did discuss the locker idea. He's not high on Ox, preferring the ARB. But, he also said the ARB is a pain to set up and it is pretty sure that the o-rings will start leaking in 2 - 10 years and require re-work. And, he thinks he probably has a double-cardan yoke for a BW1345. Billy Young's Performance Differential: A friend of his has two D60's and he wants $1400 for each, and they are complete lock-out to lock-out. But he doesn't think they include the springs. On the spring subject he suggested using the springs I have. But when I suggested SuperDuty springs he liked the idea. As for gear ratios, he has 2-3 sets of 3.54's and he will swap for $50. He will go through any axle, whether from his friend or elsewhere, for about $500, including parts such as bearings, seals, etc. Regarding a locker, he's high on even the factory unit as wells as the Trutrac. (He might take my D44 Trutrac in as trade for parts or labor.) He really doesn't see the auto-lockers as being a problem since you won't be driving in 4wd at high speed on a road. But, if I want a locker like ARB he can install it, whether I buy from him or not. Just price the unit and check w/him to see if he can get it cheaper. And, he says the track bar is not needed unless you have a diesel or large camper that is always on the truck. Says that it limits the travel of the axle to about 3", but that the springs will do a good job of locating the axle w/o the bar. Insurance Auction: I contacted my friend that runs an insurance agency. He pointed me to the auction company that handles the vehicles that have been totaled. That is TRA Auction, but looking at their website they currently don't have any SRW 4wd F350's. So, it doesn't look like the insurance auction approach is going to pay off very quickly. And, the bits and pieces are coming out of the woodwork, so that approach may be viable. And, it would save me parting something out. Anyway, I'm still exploring. And, I'd like your thoughts.

Ok, perhaps Flowcooler is selling a stock of NOS RS 'stats. Dunno. Anyway, that's the right 'stat regardless.

No prob. I think Flowcooler has their own line of 'stats?

Jim - Yes, I have an unlittered thread, so I'm not worried whatsoever about continuing the conversation. In fact, it will probably help others who might be considering what to do. So, keep on truckin'! As for someone in auctions, I don't know anyone. But, I do know someone at church that is an insurance salesman, and he would probably know. Good idea! Bob - I agree that '89 is about the only person I've seen on any forum pushing the TTB's in an F250. F100's and F150's yes, but not F250's. And now I see why.

David - Thanks! That's Steve's truck. Steve - That's my excuse as to why I was mixing up "left" and "right".