Gary Lewis

Thanks! And luck to you on getting the title!!

Well, look at that! 502B84 PANEL (ROOF INNER) 80/86 F100/350 (Reg. Cab) EOTZ 10502B84-A

Lol! NO! I've had three cups of Joe today and my tummy is NOT happy. Just took a Tagamet and a "few" Tums. The guy from George Smith called and they don't have a D60. But he said to call another outfit. And that guy said they have a few in C&C's with DRW's but they are "worn out". They want $650 for them. But, obviously, they'll have the wrong hubs and probably the wrong ratio. However, he says they have an '88 F350 SRW w/TTB's and 3.54. We discussed that a bit with me saying it really should be a D60 as TTB's (he called them "the scissors suspension") were not used in the F350's. He's gone to look and is to call back.

The official name is PANEL (COWL TRIM). It is shown here Interior/Interior Trim and on the Illustrations tab as 02344. But I don't have it on the Part Numbers tab as it is a year-by-year thing and is a pain to put on the website.

My name is Gary, and I have a problem. I collect.

83/88 F150/350 (99) — w/rear bumper E3TZ 13A409-F #E3TB 13A409-BA

Pete - Sorry, but my three spares are for an auto.

Mark - My pump is frozen up as well. Sorry. You are welcome to it but I seriously doubt that you want it.

I'm reading the mail, but spending most of my time on the phone. Here's the nid-day update: Brandon/Bruno2: Honda runs like a sewing machine. Call Richard at Axle Transmissions & Transfers. And talk to David at Harmon's. Axle Transmission & Transfers: No D60's. "They go as fast as they come in." Midway U-Pull: No trucks like that at present, but they think they recently bought an F350 like that and don't know if it is 4wd as it isn't in the inventory yet. But, I signed up to get a text if they get an '86-'97 F350 in stock. Harmon's: No D60's. But they may have a double-cardan yoke for the BW1345. Will check and call back. Big D: Boss man is out chasing 9" parts. Will have him call when he get's back. Midwest Expedition Outfitters: No Dana stuff. We usually do Toyotas. Call Big D. Told him 'bout the website and forum and he said "You don't have a 9" pumpkin in 3.55 do you?" Guess what my response was. But, as a clue, he thanked me. Jon Stittsworth/JStitts: Jon's in the insurance industry. Said to call George W. Smith Salvage City, Ada. And call Square Deal Auto Parts. George Smith: Don't think so, but will call back after checking. Square Deal: Don't have anything like that.

So, for $300 you can have this shipped to you, or for $400 you can buy a whole bed.

Judging by the interest in finding the fenders, you should be able to sell those easily. But I'll let the Flareside owners voice their opinions.

Yes! The Bee Hive it is! In fact, if I remember correctly that's where my SiL proposed to my daughter. Harold's was a hole-in-the-wall BBQ place in Abilene. It made Joe Allen's look modern. Harold, the owner, loved to sing and frequently came out from the kitchen to do so. But many years ago he had a heart attack and spent quite some time recovering. We were fortunate to be there the day he came back to work. Unfortunately he apparently passed away several years ago and the place is closed, as explained here. That's why you've not heard of it, but I'll bet your wife's family has.

Jim - Good point. Progressive springs is an aspect of the discussion that we've not covered, and which makes it more complicated. From what I remember of the 250 springs there are two full-length leaves. Do the 350 springs, and presumably the SD springs, have different length leaves? I'm going to guess that the 250's lack of allowable travel forced Ford to use a single-rate spring. It had to be STIFF to ensure it doesn't hit the stop all the time. But with more allowable travel the 350 springs could be softer initially and then stiffen up as you near the stop. How much distance is there between the spring and the stop on a 350? Or, how much travel is there? How 'bout the SD's? I'm just curious how big of a difference there is.

I think "washing out" is how I'd like to portray my demise at Kansas State - where I'd also learned Fortran on a 1620 in '65. But, I suspect that "lack of study" would be the stated cause, not English Composition, for me. But, that doesn't mean I'm good at the "liberal arts" stuff. I had a Western Lit class where the final was to be an essay on an as-yet un-named book which we'd studied. So I wrote essays on three of the probable choices and fine-tuned them with a friend for days before the final. Sure enough, two of the books I picked were options so I chose my best essay and wrote it from memory. And I got a C. My very best work, written and re-written over several days, was barely average. "Engineering Graphics" - My time in that class was spent at a true drawing board with scales, protractors, mechanical pencils, and lots of erasers. But the better term for the class was "mechanical drawing". Swimming? In '65 they lined us freshmen up by the pool in our gym clothes and asked us if we could swim. If you said "yes" they pushed you into the pool to prove it. I was stunned that my best friend, standing beside me, quickly said "no". I thought everyone knew how to swim as I'd grown up doing it. Anyway, I went into Judo instead.

I wouldn't go with a 351M. It isn't that I don't like them. I really do like them. However, you cannot get pistons for them that provide anything more than just barely 8:1 compression. Instead, you would need to find a 400, which is exactly the same but has 1/2" more stroke. There are good piston choices for them. But I'll warn you that building a 400 is more expensive than building a Windsor. There aren't that many doing it so the parts prices are higher. However, how many people do you know that can tell the difference in a 302 and a 351W just by looking? Yes, a 351W is not "correct" in an '80, but very few will know that nor be able to tell the difference.

Pete - I hope to get to the shop today and I'll look to see what I have.

I was in middle/high school while my dad was going to OSU for engineering. I asked him what his homework was, and he replied, "Diffahwenchah Equazioahhh." I thought he was being silly, and in a way he was. His Differential Equations prof was from an undisclosed asian country. He just about failed the class because he made the mistake of trying to listen to the prof instead of looking at the math. I wonder how many of those profs there were back then? I had one at Kansas State that wore a turban. I'd forgotten all about that until this conversation, but I believe he taught Calc, not Diff E. While I'd like to blame my poor grade in that class on his English, the truth is that I just don't care for the theory all that much. That came to light in my Physics classes. We had two teachers - one that drove a new Vette but didn't know how to work on it, and one that was a true hands-on guy. I got along great with the latter and not so much with the former. The difference in the class room was that the hands-on guy would explain how to apply the theory in every-day terms, and that clicked with me. But the other one never associated the learning to actuality.

I started to figure it out more completely and got lost too, so I had to go back to what my Statics TA back in college called "a fwee-ah ah-body ah-diagwam-ah" (or "free body diagram" for those of us to whom English is not our fourth language. And yes, I get that his English was MUCH better than my Chinese, so I'm really not putting him down). What we're talking about here is how stiff the springs are. Spring stiffness is measured as the compression rate, how much force it takes to deflect the spring a certain amount. But springs are linear, so it's also how much MORE force it takes to deflect the springs a certain amount MORE. Let's start with the F-350 suspension because it's so simple we don't need a free body diagram. Let's start with the assumptions that the front of the truck weighs 3000 lbs and we want a spring stiffness of 500 lbs/in (meaning it takes 500 lbs to compress the spring 1 inch). I just pulled that number out of the air, but it'll work for a comparison. With 3000 lbs on the front of an F-350, that's 1500 lbs on each of the front tires, and 1500 lbs supported by each of the front springs. Now if the springs have a rate of 500 lb/in, that would mean that if we put an additional 1000 lbs on the front of the truck we would be putting 500 lbs more on each spring and it will deflect 1" below wherever it is at ride height. And since this is a simple solid axle suspension, 1" more compression on each spring means each tire moves up (relative to the truck) the same 1". Now lets take the F-250 front suspension and figure out what the actual spring stiffness needs to be to give an apparent stiffness of 500 lb/in. By that I mean when we put an additional 1000 lbs on the front of the truck we want each front tire to move up 1", the same as we saw in the F-350. This is where a free body diagram becomes necessary for me. A free body diagram is a rough sketch of a "solid" piece (it doesn't have to actually be solid, or one piece, it just needs to not move with respect to itself). You show what forces are applied in what locations. Newtons law tells us that unless the piece is accelerating, the sum of all of the forces on it must be zero, and the sum of all of the moments on it must also be zero (in physics a "moment" is the torque exerted on an object by applying a force on a lever arm). Below is the free body diagram for one tire / axle beam assembly of an F-250 front suspension. Fp is the vertical force applied to the swing arm at the pivot. Fs is the force applied to the spring perch by the spring (it's also the force on the spring). And Ft is the force applied to the tire by the ground (or the amount of weight sitting on the front tire). The measurements of 26" from pivot to spring perch and 41" from the pivot to the contact patch are approximate measurements off my '97 F-250. And they are measured parallel to the ground, not in a straight line from the pivot to the contact patch or spring perch. Since the forces in the vertical direction need to add up to zero, the diagram tells us that Fs = Ft + Fp. Or solving for Fp (we might want to later...), Fp = Fs - Ft. And the sum of the moments must also equal zero. Moments need to be defined around a certain point. The physics don't care what point we use, but the math will be easier if we pick the "right" point. So we'll use the pivot point. The moment the spring exerts on the body around the pivot point is Fs x 26". The moment the ground exerts on it around the pivot point is Ft x 41. So that means that Fs x 26 = Ft x 41. Or solving for Fs, Fs = Ft x 41 / 26 Let's take the same 3000 lb front end, but we'll only look at one side. The weight on the tire is half the truck weight, so still 1500 lbs, just like the F-350. But now when we do the math, the force on the spring is Ft x 41 / 26, or 1,500 lbs x 41 / 26, or 2,365 lbs! (for what it's worth, Fp = Fs - Ft = 865 lbs). Now let's put an additional 1,000 lbs on the front of the truck to move the tire up 1", the same as we did for the F-350. Now the new Fs = 2,000 lbs x 41 / 26 = 3,154 lbs. So we've put an additional 3,154 - 2,365 = 788 lbs on the spring. But how much has it deflected? Since the tire at a 41" radius went up 1", the spring at a 26" radius went up 26 x 1/41 = 0.63". Spring rate is (additional) force per (additional) deflection, so 788 lbs / 0.63" = 1,243 lbs/in. Just a little stiffer than the 500 lb/in F-350 spring! This result was so much more than I expected that I didn't believe it. I've checked my equations and my math a couple of times though, so I'm pretty sure it's right. But if anyone wants to prove me wrong I won't be at all offended. Edit to add: A few posts later I described how the F-250 spring stiffness likely increases significantly as the TTB geometry pulls it sideways. My calculations above are for this overall spring rate. If you put an F-250 spring on a solid axle it would not get reefed on so badly, so the overall spring rate of the same spring in that case would be lower. I'm still sure that the F-250 spring is significantly stiffer than an F-350 spring, even if it were on a solid axle. But likely it isn't 2.5 times stiffer if the pulling sideways isn't taken into account. I'd like to say that I understood every word of that. But, the truth is that I understood the principles and didn't get hung up on the words. And, while my Statics is slightly less "rusty" than Bill's, it is nonetheless about 50 years old. (Having said that, I ran statics and dynamics programs for Conoco a few years after that, so let's just say it is just very, very old.) In any event, it looks like the F250 spring rates from this calculation are 2.5 times higher than those of an F350. (2.486 to be exact.) So, while the un-sprung weight of a D60 is higher than that of a D44HD, the fact that you get 2.5x the movement would make a huge difference in the ride as well as the articulation when on a trail. I'm sold. And, I'm feeling like it is time to make a deal for the axle in OKC and take the trailer down and get it. Then order the stuff off ebay that David found, and shop 'round for SD springs and then order in the Sky kit. But first I want to talk to Chris at Boomer's. Maybe tomorrow.

Yes, the cutout is very large. But, it is a nice piece.

Those are nice!

Yep, that's everything you need for the swap. Guys - I'm getting lost in the physics. Which is strange 'cause that's what one of my degrees is in. Anyway, I feel sure that I don't want to use the F250 springs. F350 springs would be better, and SuperDuty springs the best. Shaun - Thanks for the confirmation. All - I called the salvage Robert suggested and he had nothing. When I asked the guy at that salvage if he had any suggestions he referred me to the place in OKC which has the one I've called about. And, I've not heard from Chris. But it is possible that due to the rain and storms he didn't make it in today.

I'd say the engine choice depends on what you are going to do with the truck. If you are going to tow with it the 351 would be my choice. It won't cost much, if anything, more to build than a 302 and will give more torque with the same investment. But if you aren't going to tow and will drive it, and especially if it is going to be a daily driver, then the smaller engine can be both strong enough and more efficient.

You are on the map. And I know where Breckenridge is as our daughter went to ACU. What's the name of the "restaurant" in Albany? And I assume you've been to Harold's? We were there the day he sang the first time when coming back from heart surgery - if I remember correctly.

Maybe a farthing then? Haven't been to the shop yet today, but maybe later this afternoon or at least tomorrow. Will check out the pump(s) then. In T-Town at a Barnes & Nobles. Gotta buy this 2019 London Guide as it has so many pics of places we've been and may want to go again. Good memories that I want to share tonight with Janey.

Jim - From what I've seen at his shop you may well be right - hard core four wheeling, not overlanding. I hadn't thought about that, but I need a suspension that will do everything well. I need it to ride and handle well on the highway so I can get "there". And it needs to have enough articulation/flexibility to handle the rough stuff when on the trails. Plus it needs to handle towing nicely. But I don't want to maximize any one of those things as I suspect that would minimize the others. Right now the stiffness makes it no fun to drive long distances and it can't be any fun on rough trails as you'll feel every bump. Plus it'll lose traction 'cause one of the front wheels isn't going to be carrying its fair share of the weight. But, it tows nicely. Bob - I see what you are saying about the physics. The 1986 dealer facts book shows the standard front axle on a 4wd F350 had a capacity of 5000 lbs as opposed to 3850 for the F250HD 4wd. So, if your math is right, the F250's springs would be rated at 5775 lbs. Not a huge difference, but the F350 springs should be softer. And with an RSK the ride would be even better. But wait! There's SD springs available. Having said that, wouldn't the 250 springs have to be even stiffer since they can only allow 1 1/2" of travel? Perhaps the D44HD axle is the limiting factor and not the springs? Anyway, I've now talked to Robert at Four Wheel Parts. Basically, they don't do what I am wanting to do. Yes, they could build the D60, but he recommended Chris at Boom's Garage for what I'm looking for. I have a call into Chris, but he's probably gone to lunch so maybe I'll hear soon. And, Robert suggested another salvage to talk to, so while I'm waiting on Chris I'll call them.......