What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

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What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

BigBrother-84
Hi Gentlemen!

Possibly planning a small    road trip with Big Brother, end of this summer.  Wife seems to become more positive to this crazy idea.


So, I am planning some little add-on.
Just in case.
We never know.


In order to respect a 1G alternator capacity, what maximum inverter to chose?  500W, more, less?

Thanks for your advices!
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

Gary Lewis
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Most 1G alternators will throw 60 amps at full tilt, meaning with engine RPM of 3000, so the wattage output would be 60(a) x 14 (v) = 840.  But, as shown below, you'll only get 50A at 1000 RPM, and more like 30A at 600 RPM idle so you'll have to have the engine spinning pretty good if you want to power the inverter completely off the alternator.

However, if you are willing to pull the battery down a bit you can pull more than 60 amps for a while, so you could get by with 1000 watts for a bit.  Just make sure that you have all other accessories off and that you don't do it for very long.

But the inverter only pulls enough current to produce the power requested by the device you plug into it.  So you could go with a larger inverter and keep the device to 1000W and be ok - for a bit.

What are you thinking of running on the inverter?  

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

BigBrother-84
Gary Lewis wrote
What are you thinking of running on the inverter?
Nothing very energy hungry, probably only for recharging a laptop, a rechargeable spotlight, camping things like that.
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

Gary Lewis
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I found a 12v recharging cable for my laptop so it doesn't need an inverter.  Maybe you could do that for your laptop and buy lantern that recharges off 12v - both for less than an inverter?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

BigBrother-84
Yes, I contemplated that solution, but strangely it could cost more than a small inverter.

The inverter solution offers more "flexibility".  But, knowing that a 1G isn't very powerful, I want to stay in an acceptable load range for it.
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ArdWrknTrk
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Be mindful Gary that inverters get hot and that heat has to come from somewhere, even though it doesn't end up as wattage on the back end.
Fortunately IGBT are far more efficient than the transformer style inverters of old.  

I'm just pointing out that there are efficiency losses beyond the load, and you would have to look at documentation specific to the inverter you purchase to know exactly what they are.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Very true, Jim. But the 3KW one I got from you pulls so little w/o a load that it is hard to measure. So if all Jeff needs to do is to charge things like a computer he should be able to use a very small inverter that will have almost no load at idle.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ArdWrknTrk
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Not "stand by" without load, the heat from the coils or IGBT's when it actually has to put out the rated watts.
That heat comes from somewhere, and that 'somewhere' is the lame alternator.

You're an engineer... I'm sure you can understand this.

Yes, if all Jeff needs is 120W to run a laptop that's one thing. But that doesn't address the title of this thread.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ratdude747
In reply to this post by BigBrother-84
What kind of laptop?

I've gotten dell and lenovo cords 12V cords (for my fleet of personal and work laptops) for under $30 a pop on eBay (OEM- not knockoff Chinese fire starters).

I also know some dell chargers will not work on an inverter that isn't a pure sine output. At least the "Old" PA10 (90W) and PA12(65W) bricks. As lots of noise, errors, and blown inverters. Hence why I opted for dedicated car chargers.

Dell did make a 40W brick that was both AC and DC... I have one somewhere (120V brick with a 12V barrel plug input on the side). But I don't think it was common as I've only seen one once, and that's the one I found at a thrift store and have in the pile.
1984 F150: 300 L6, AOD, RWD. EEC IV / TFI, Feedback Carter YFA Carb. Stock everything but radio (for now).
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

BigBrother-84
ratdude747 wrote
What kind of laptop?
I'm on Mac.  All my office is too.
iPhones, iPads, iMacs, MacMinis, MacBooks, iGadgets, name it.  I keep old G4, old PoweMac, old Quadra 700, just in case I have to access old softwares or files requiring old technology and chips (it happens, each 3-4 years).
Even a vintage Macintosh SE30 is running 24/7 the black&white Flying Toasters screen saver in my office meeting room, just for fun.

If instead buying Macs since 1989 I have bought Apple's stock shares, I would be rich right now...


Ok, back to the thread...  I plan to charge various little things.  For example, charging my drone batteries.  My DSLR camera batteries.  And so on.

So, buying a compatible 12V charger for each of these various techno tools would be expansive, and complicated.  A little inverter would be much simpler and flexible for my hypothetical  road trip.

I won't need a lot of power, and I wanna be sure to stay respectful to my 1G capacity.

Ideally, this inverter would be connected directly to the battery poles, in order to leave the 12V dash lighter plug free, for my 12V-5A-DC Koolatron travel cooler.
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Well you don't say where you would put your inverter but if I wanted to use a 500W inverter in my truck I would probably run a  cable up the passenger side fender, fused/breaker somewhere along there and pull it through the grommet where the HVAC wires and vacuum lines come through.

Then have enough coiled in the glove box to reach the floor or seat(s)
Terminate in an XT60 plug and wire an XT60 pigtail to the inverter.
The cable will remain out of sight and fairly protected when not in use.

When choosing pay attention to the inverter housing and be certain to get one that is pure sine wave (warning above^^^)

I hope you have an enjoyable road trip!  😉
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

BigBrother-84
Jim, that plan sounds good.

I understand that a 500W would be enough for my needs and will ensure to not overload my 1G charging capacity.

Any advice about the wire gauge (from battery to glove compartment), for a such 500W inverter?

And what about this circuit protection fuse amperage?
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
500W would absolutely max your alternator, but as Gary says you'll have a little in reserve with a decent battery (I've got a 1000A group 65)
Some tutorials suggest only 1/2 rated output.

10 Ga. Is the pretty much the max you can reasonably fit in an XT 60 socket (100A surge) and should be fine as long as you don't want the inverter sitting in the back seat.
Take note of the insulation temperature rating when you put wires in the engine bay. (I've become preferential to the fine strand copper, silicone jacketed stuff the RC guys are using)   https://a.co/d/3CfdoX7

60A automotive/marine breaker, surface mount, push to trip, manual reset, as close to the battery as I could get (like under the starter relay)
Something like these:  https://www.amazon.com/Fastronix-Surface-Circuit-Breaker-Manual/dp/B092BB6761?th=1
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/46921/EATON-s-Bussmann-Series-184060F-01-1-Surface-Mount/

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

BigBrother-84
Jim, you gathered here all the information I needed, thanks so much!


This makes me realize that I never considered the supplemental power load I added to Big Brother during the years.

Here is a portrait of Big Brother's situation:

No A/C;
Exterior:
 -LED beams (I plan to change them, not satisfied.  I am actually discussing with Daniel Stern about a solution similar to Gary's one.  BTW Gary, did you know that this gentleman speaks French (he unmasked me at my first question —I cannot figure out how — and directly answered to me in French )
 -OEM markers and stop lights
 -7 blades trailer plug, with electrical brakes module under the dash
 -Backup camera
Interior:
 -2 OEM dome lights
 -OEM cluster but with LED lights
 -OEM AM-FM radio, but upgraded with a Bluetooth hands free kit (no subwoofer installed, but could have one)
 -OEM air/heater fan
 -OEM 12V cigarette lighter plug for accessories
 -Replacement mirror with integrated backup camera screen

Contemplating to install:
• Small inverter (400W?)
• Daniel Sterns more powerful marker lights

No more, I promise.
For the moment.


With that in mind, am I already pushing Big Brother's 1G to its limits?
Or there is no reason to panic...
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I didn’t know that!  But he sure seems to know a lot, so knowing another language shouldn’t surprise me.

Don’t go to LED tail/brake lights w/o testing. My trailer brake controller doesn’t work with them. Don’t know why but it doesn’t.

As for the headlights, I really like my setup. However you really need to install a relay setup for your headlights if you don’t have one.

But I don’t think you are pushing the 1G too much. Nothing you have or are talking about is excessive.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by BigBrother-84
Jeff,
Daniel Stern used to feature Cibie and Marchal lamps and had extensive documentation about the French selective yellow headlamp regulation that was in effect for much of the middle 20th C. (1938 - 1993)
I imagine he has to speak French to do business with them and read all those research papers/regulations.

I don't think you intend to overload your alternator or that a laptop or drone battery would be too much.
But I also don't know how much power a cooler draws.
Blower and wipers can eat a bunch of watts and you have the ignition on top of that.
AC doesn't add any electrical load beyond the compressor's magnetic clutch.

Just pointing out that by installing an inverter you make it possible to over load/heat the 1G.
Maybe better to fuse the inverter at 40A which aligns a little below 500W @ 12V (41.666 A*)
I still wouldn't go any smaller on the wires. Low voltage has a lot of resistance as runs get longer.

Do you have a voltmeter? If not, have you considered the Rocketman mod? (because I think it's much more telling of actual state of charge than the wonky ammeter that came stock)
Forewarned is forearmed.

Edit: A for V   Sorry I didn't catch that when I first posted.  
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

BigBrother-84
ArdWrknTrk wrote
But I also don't know how much power a cooler draws.
Koolatron says 12V-5A-DC.

ArdWrknTrk wrote
Low voltage has a lot of resistance as runs get longer.
Yep, and Big Bro being a Crew Cab, chances are that I'll locate the little inverter somewhere on the back seat, maybe behind it.
So the bigger wire running from the battery would be the best?


ArdWrknTrk wrote
Do you have a voltmeter? If not, have you considered the Rocketman mod? (because I think it's much more telling of actual state of charge than the wonky ammeter that came stock)
Forewarned is forearmed.
You're absolutely right.  My only concern is that I want to "hide" as much as possible the modern upgrades I make to Big Bro (Jim, you well know my "as stock as possible" obsession ).  If a modern voltmeter that mimics the OEM one exists, I buy and install it in the cluster right now, no matter (or, well, almost) the price.

Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Okay, so add another 5A to the load on the alternator, as I expect a cooler will be running for extended periods, unlike a cigarette lighter which is typically drawing for maybe 15 seconds?

Any of the 3G conversion threads have links to the Rocketman's Classic Cougar Innovations ammeter conversion.
He only works on original Ford meters but you could pull one from a junkyard or eBay and have that one refurbished.
You want the F100-80V. It's $50 with a couple of weeks turnaround.  https://www.rccinnovations.com/index.php?show=menu-volt-all  I don't know about any added shipping to Canada.
Gary could better tell you how well the modified ammeter works. He might even have a spare that you could figure out the round robin to get an exchanged one in your hands.

If you intend to locate the inverter in the back seat you need to count the distance both ways, because electrons 'run' all the way back to ground.
Before, I had only considered that the wire might be 10' long and that 10Ga.+ XT60 would be fine for that.

I also need to consider that you're never likely to max out a 500W inverter for what you intend.
(I chose 500 because that seems to be a sweet spot where there seem to be lots of models and features available)
A smaller 400W inverter should be fine with 10Ga. wire. The chart shows 36A @ 25' and 400W is less than that.
There seem to be a few that are pure sine wave and have a couple of USB ports for charging things like phones and drones as well as the usual 2x NEMA 5-15R sockets.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Additionally, 40A seems to be the smallest type III surface mount breakers available.
Disregard the above 60A models!

It appears they are popular for trolling motors.
I like the style with a 'test' button so you can disable the circuit if need be.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: What maximum power inverter for 1G alternator

Rembrant
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
ArdWrknTrk wrote
You want the F100-80V. It's $50 with a couple of weeks turnaround.  https://www.rccinnovations.com/index.php?show=menu-volt-all  I don't know about any added shipping to Canada.
Gary could better tell you how well the modified ammeter works. He might even have a spare that you could figure out the round robin to get an exchanged one in your hands.
He might have one in-stock

I sent him one to convert but he was extremely backed up at the time, and he had it for several weeks in queue, and then I went and sold my truck

I told him to keep it. I had several extras at the time anyway.
1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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