Starting diagnosis help required

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Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
Hi Gentlemen!

Hoping everybody has nice Holiday!

Big Bro refuse to start
Yesterday I wanted to take him out for the Christmas picture, but had a lot of difficulty to start.
After successfully started, I had this nice idea of stopping the engine to "see" if Big Bro will start easier...  Total fail, nothing goes.

Battery fully charged but same behavior as if the battery was too low.  Low lights, one unique "clonk" at key startup, ceiling light yellowing.  I feel that insisting to start burned something...

I am planning to test the relay, but not sure about this jumping test:


I understand I have to disconnect the push-on wire, but not clear what to jump.

Anyone can clarify this for me?

Thanks!

Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

ArdWrknTrk
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Jeff, they are suggesting to jump the S terminal to the relay stud with the battery + attached.

You therefore eliminate everything from the fusible link, cab power cable, ignition switch, neutral safety switch and harness back to the fender relay.

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by BigBrother-84
How cold has it been?
Maybe the battery electrolyte is frozen and can't pass the ions it needs to?

If something like the interior light is not glowing brightly it's not down to coagulated grease in the ignition switch.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
Thanks Jim for the precision!

Not so cold.  Night 5°F, day 20°F.
Last winter I had to change the battery after a whole week under -22°F, the old battery was frozen.

The battery looks very good, testing the charge indicates complete full charge.

I'll continue to investigate, although a new relay isn't really expansive.  Won't spend a lot of time before trying a new one...

I just hope this is not a fusible link or other "no evidence" issue.
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

ArdWrknTrk
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Extended cranking won't cause a fusible link any harm.
The current needed to "pull in" close the relay isn't very much.

Not sure if you have the means to load test your battery but that is what I would suggest.
A meter will read surface charge. It doesn't have any way to show how many cold cranking amps can be delivered.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

Gsmblue
If you are sure your battery is good I would check your battery terminals and cables from the battery.

Check voltage drop from the battery terminals to the next stop along the cable.
1985.5 F-150 XL Explorer standard cab 5.0 EFI AOD 4x4
Daily Driver. We call her Eunice the Ute.

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351W AOD 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project thread for the blow by blow.

1984 F-350 XL Centurion crew cab 460 T19 4x4
"Eylza Dual-little"
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
Guys, many thanks for your help!

We presently have a gathering of family, cousins, children & spouses, couple of kids (and lot of dogs 🙄) at home.
🥳🎉

They arrived Saturday and everybody leaves tomorrow (Tuesday), so going to have time for Big Brother.

I plan to:
1- Recheck and tighten every contact (battery, grounds, starter, relay).
2- Verify the voltage at battery, and between battery and relay poles.
3- Unplug the S wire and jump the relay +|- poles, and therefore see if the starter and battery work well.
4- «Light continuity tester» between battery negative pole and S wire, to check if the starting wires/switch work well.
5- If required, change the relay (but all car parts are closed here for couple of days).

I will update you on my progress!


Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
While you unplug the S wire, jump + to S terminal with a paperclip or something.
This is what your tutorial is suggesting.
It doesn't seem there is any malfunction of the relay from what you described.

You say the dome light is dim.
That's a single fusible link and the door switch.
If you have these problems the one common denominator is the battery (after checking the ground cable)

I'd still try to load test your battery.
Or maybe just bring it inside to warm up and charge, see if that changes anything.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
Jim, yes I plan also to do a battery load test, as you suggested.

And for the paper clip, I didn't see that trick during my search.  What tutorial are you talking about?
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This is step 2 of the image you posted above.
They don't say "use a paperclip" they just say jump this terminal to battery positive.

Jumping over the relay from the battery cable to the starter cable with a big open end wrench or similar will eliminate the relay as a cause, but it doesn't prove much beyond that.
If you try that and don't get a ferocious spark that tries to weld the wrench I'd say your battery is shot, no matter what the charger tells you.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
Ok, thanks!
👍

Probably going to have time today, after family left.
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

Gsmblue
I got one of these a while back, useful tool. I think I got it from
Harbor freight

Sunpro Actron CP7853 Remote Starter Switch for 6V and 12V Automotive Starting Systems, Black https://a.co/d/a0iAo4f
1985.5 F-150 XL Explorer standard cab 5.0 EFI AOD 4x4
Daily Driver. We call her Eunice the Ute.

1982 Bronco XLT Lariat 351W AOD 4x4
Code name Esperanza, or Espy to her friends. Please see my Project thread for the blow by blow.

1984 F-350 XL Centurion crew cab 460 T19 4x4
"Eylza Dual-little"
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
In reply to this post by BigBrother-84
Gentlemen, well, I have to say it was a total fail:

1- Recheck and tighten every contact (battery, grounds, starter, relay). DONE, no problem.
2- Verify the voltage at battery, and between battery and relay poles. DONE, no problem.
3- Unplug the S wire and jump the relay +|- poles, and therefore see if the starter and battery work well. DONE, no problem, the truck started correctly, full electric power.
4- «Light continuity tester» between battery negative pole and S wire, to check if the starting wires/switch work well. DONE, no problem.
5- If required, change the relay.. Well, can't say if it is faulty, this time it worked.  But I remember having this kind of trouble last summer, maybe twice.  Stop to fuel up at the gaz station, and had one "clonk" while turning the key when leaving.  Saying to myself «oh-oh, what's going on», but another key turn and everything starts normally, so forget it, «I probably did not turn the key correctly».


So, I'll order a brand new relay (a Motorcraft one), and hope this intermittent trouble will vanish.
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Dit you jump the +/S terminals?
That's what is going to tell you if the relay functions.
I wouldn't be too sure of newer 'Genuine Motorcraft' starter relays (Chris cut one open on FTE showing plain steel -rusty- contacts)

Dim bulbs have nothing to do with the fender relay.
You could attach the fusible links directly to your positive battery clamp bolt. There's likely not much drop over the foot or so of cable at the loads going into the cab.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
Thanks again Jim, going to investigate a little more about the lack of power (yellowing lights) I had.  Will check how all wires are attached to this famous relay.

ArdWrknTrk wrote
Dit you jump the +/S terminals?
To be frank I went the hard way, jumping the + and - main poles with a big screwdriver.  Didn't do the S jumping .
Since I really don't trust this relay (strange starting behaviour this summer), I will change it.  And open it after, to expose to sunlight its guts.

About this latter, I am a bit confused about the good model.


Mine is looking as this one (E8TZ-11450-B), the fourth pole isn't required:


I was looking for a 3 poles, thinking it was the good one (E9TZ-11450-B):


But I found at NPD that the good model for 1984 F-350 should be this one (E7HZ-11450-A):

Four poles too, and completely different shape...  Any advice about the goal of this fourth pole?


I searched in the Forum Documentation and did not find where to verify this solenoid/starter-relay part number.  Any idea?
Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I posted a three stud diode suppressed starter relay the other day.

The vertical can (pole transformer looking) relays were used extensively in the '70's and early '80's but superceded by the time EEC came around '85.
I think of them as Cole-Hersee style relays. They're still popular for winches and electric over hydraulic plows.

The other small terminal labeled 'I' is only hot while the relay is engaged and was used to send full power to electric fuel pumps (prime) and can be used to trigger timing retard of the DSII module in some models.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

81-F150-Explorer
In reply to this post by BigBrother-84
EDIT: Posted this before I saw Jim's answer above.

The Fourth Poll or "I" is for the 12v ignition coil resistor bypass on models "without" EEC and/or Duraspark ignition modules.

Mostly used for Points and Condenser type starting systems so you can have full 12V at the coil while starting.

The reason the "I" terminal is not used on the Duraspark and/or EEC systems is they have their own 12V starter bypass circuit and it's redundant.

Now if you modified an old Points/Condenser type system from before 1975 to a Duraspark, or EEC, and used the original wiring, utilizing the "I" post, I could potentially see a problem with voltage spikes from the starter solenoid etc...

There are a ton of these things superseded in the older MPC parts "books".

Part Number: E5TZ-11450-A / Three Post /  I believe  E9TZ-11450-A / RB - E9TZ-11450-B Replaced it.

E4TZ-11450-BA / Four Post / I Believe E8TZ-11450-B Replaced it.

E7HZ-11450-A is the larger one turned on it's side etc ...

The E7HZ-11450-A is the one for Jeff's application according to the MPC.
Truck: 1981 F-150 Explorer / Engine: 300-6 California MCU Feedback System / Trans: T-18 - 4 speed / 2.75 Ford Rear Axle Open Diff.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
Thanks a lot guys!


Jim, I apologize, I didn't see that thread, although it is a recent one.  Thanks to have pointed at it, I will read carefully!

Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

BigBrother-84
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

ArdWrknTrk wrote
The other small terminal labeled 'I' is only hot while the relay is engaged and was used to send full power to electric fuel pumps (prime) and can be used to trigger timing retard of the DSII module in some models.
Ralph, am I correct to think that the "I" post goal you are describing is the same as the starter switch "start bypass" wire discussed here?
https://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Do-late-70-s-and-80-s-era-coils-require-ballast-resistor-tp119523p119563.html

Jeff / 1984 F350 Crew Cab 4x4/5.8L w351 4V/ T18/ D50 4.10 front/ 8' bed.
Restored 2019-2022.
Nicknamed «Big Brother 1984», due to its soooo-looong shape & nod to George Orwell's 1984 famous novel.
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Re: Starting diagnosis help required

81-F150-Explorer
Yes exactly.

The older systems (Points/Condenser) used the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid as part of the start bypass circuit.

Newer systems (Duraspark/EEC) used a dedicated start bypass wire directly from the ignition switch, eliminating the starter solenoid connection.

Now some newer vehicles will use the fourth starter solenoid connection to power the electric fuel pumps for starting.

Truck: 1981 F-150 Explorer / Engine: 300-6 California MCU Feedback System / Trans: T-18 - 4 speed / 2.75 Ford Rear Axle Open Diff.
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