New member, big problem

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New member, big problem

ReneH
Hi together,

my Name is Rene, I'm located in germany, near Frankfurt. I have bought a 1985 Ford Bronco with 302 EFI inside in january 2022. After driving it about 120 miles home, I want to do some adaptions. Journey back to home was OK, nothing suspicius. At home, as I have removed the exhaust mailfolds, I have seen there is much dirt Inside...very, very much. More dirt than engine.

So, to make it short, I have talked to some people in the Fullsizebronco forum. At the end of this tale, I now have a 347 stroker. Nearly everything replaced. Only the stock heads are still there.

Now, my problem is that after all was mounted, that engine runs very fat...after it runs some minutes, all 8 spark-plugs are wet. The engine starts instantly, runs in idle and also at higher RPM. Not very good, but it runs. After checking many things, I have found out, that all 8 injectors spraying 2 times per full rotation of the distributor finger...I my understanding this explains why so much fuel comes inside the engine.
My injectors are split in two groups. Each group has a direct cable to the ECU and a seperate PIN there.

So I have replaced many other Parts (ECU, TFI, MAP, EFI-Temp-sonsors...) all without success...the last answer in the fullsizebronco forum was, that maybe the PIP-Sensor is defective.

It was planed to get the car running until friday to drive in holidays...but I don't have much hope anymore that I will be able to fix the problem in that time.

Thanks in advance for your help...I will post images and more information next year, when I'm back from holidays.
René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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Re: New member, big problem

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Rene - Welcome!  Glad you joined.  

I have lots of questions but know from our phone calls that you are desperate to get the truck running for a "hobby day" on Friday.  I hope someone here has a magic bullet for you and will tag a few of them that might so they know you've posted.

For the others, he replaced the ECU today with one for a 351W since that's closer to what he has in an engine now.  But it didn't really change anything from the 302 ECU - both of them have it running really rich.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: New member, big problem

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Was just talking with Brandon/Bruno2 and we discussed the fact that your injectors appear to be firing twice per revolution of the distributor.  That doesn't seem right, but it might happen if there's a short between Bank 1 and Bank 2 wiring.

I'd pull the connectors off the injectors and check continuity between the banks.  In other words, between T/R and T/O wires.  But you may have to pull the connector off the ECU to get an accurate read.


Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: New member, big problem

mat in tn
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
which injectors?  if they are the oem then they are the orange coded 19lb/hr rating.
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Re: New member, big problem

ReneH
As I have done a new wiring for the injectors and also replaced all injector connectors, I have also double checked all wiring there. I have also replaced the 4-pin connector that goes directly to the ECU. So for testing I have set two LED lamps instead of the injectors directly to pin 58 and 59. Pin 58 and 59 are not shorten and only going to GND, if the engine cranks and the ecu gives the signal.

I have bought original Bosch injectors, refurbished. They seem to work fine.

Both you can see here in some videos I have made:
https://youtu.be/tf3u-zJ9U5Q
https://youtube.com/shorts/yT0THsq6TlE?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/os4gwDGRwlY?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/CiFhB2Bi6hE?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/eytON7sDsfc?feature=share
René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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Re: New member, big problem

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Looks like you have the orange injectors.  However, Bill/85lebaront2 said in another thread that "the injectors on the bank fired trucks are grouped 1 - end 4 (1458) 2 - center 4 (2367)".  But in video #3 you show what appear to be 5, 6, 7, & 8 firing together, which doesn't fit with what Bill said.

Also, in the other videos where you have two LEDs in place of the injectors, it looks to me like both LEDs light at the same time, and do so two times per revolution of the distributor.  They shouldn't light at the same time and shouldn't fire twice/distributor revolution.

Both of those things tell me that the wiring is wrong.  Having all of the injectors fire at the same time, and twice per distributor revolution is wrong.  And since you've replaced the ECU the only thing left that could do that is wiring.

It appears that there's a connection between Ckt 95 and Ckt 96 some place and that is causing all injectors to fire at the same time and twice per distributor revolution.  I know you said you've checked, but I still think there's a connection between the two.  I would pull the injectors and ECU off and check between 95 and 96 and ensure they aren't shorted to each other.

I've tagged Bill to see if he agrees with what I've said.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: New member, big problem

mat in tn
that would certainly cause an extremely rich environment. in a batch fire system the injectors fire twice per cyl as it is and causing it to fire four times is terribly rich.it would also be enough so to cause the fuel pressure to stutter as it would be dumping fuel in much larger pulses. that should be seen on a gauge.
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Re: New member, big problem

ReneH
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Yes, like I've said. Original Bosch forvthe 302, refurbished.

I have connected the same groups as mentioned. Identical to the original wiring.

5,6,7,8 are the one you see. 1,2,3,4 are still inside the mainfold, cause plenum was mounted.

That's why I've connected the leds, to better see what's happening and don't have so much fuel in the air...

I've used an ohmmeter to check 95 to 96 and both to +12v And GND...no connection anywhere.

The two leds are directly connected to the ECU...only 20cm original wiring between.

You see...that's the reason I'm despairing...

What do you think about the PIP theory.
I'm still using my original distributor with the original Hal sensor...
René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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Re: New member, big problem

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
From my experience with the 1985/86 EFI systems, the engine harness is a common problem. I have no idea what Ford used for insulation on these, but it is frequently crumbling and will short across and to ground. Unfortunately, in order to really inspect the injector harness it needs to be completely accessible, meaning the plenum (upper manifold) needs to be removed.

Once that is done, disconnect the injectors and using a meter, check that the red, tan/orange and tan/red are all showing open circuit between them. While the meter is connected, try flexing the plug end (C160 on the diagram) of the harness to see if the readings change. Hopefully this will find your problem.

My other questions, (a) are you still using the original distributor and it's ignition module? (b) if original, is it a Motorcraft or aftermarket unit. (c) have you verified the wiring from the distributor. The reasons for these, the distributor has a shutter and a Hall effect pickup, one of the shutter vanes is narrower than the other 7 and this is what tells the computer where #1 cylinder is triggering the bank 1 injector pulse, bank 2 should trigger on the third wide vane following the narrow one. This gives two separate injector pulses per distributor revolution or, one per crank revolution. If the ignition system is giving improper signals to the computer, it will not work correctly (old computer term - GIGO Garbage in = Garbage Out).
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: New member, big problem

ReneH
Ok. I have replaced all injector connectors and made a complete new wiring from the injectors and the o2 sensor to the 4 pin connector near the firewall on the driver's side.

I also have made the measurements you've described...nothing short...

Yes I use the original motorcraft distributor. Changing the ignition control module to a new one also had no effect.

The check that is left are the wires directly to the ECU...I still use the stock connector on the distributor. I also have checked the spark-plug cable. All have a spark.

So my question in this case is, if the ignition works (so far I can see) is it possible That only the signal for the injectors coming from the ignition control module is wrong?

Maybe also something with these shutter wheel...it is possible that a former owner has build in a wrong distributor...maybe I should buy one for the 1986 351W engine. I already have bought the ECU from this year, cause my setup is closer to 351W than to 302...
René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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Re: New member, big problem

85lebaront2
Administrator
Rene, the V8 shutters are all the same as far as I know. Here is one from a late 460:


The reason I was asking, there is a system a lot of people like (I do not) called MSD, for Multiple Spark Discharge. These fire the coil multiple times which could cause multiple pulses to the computer.

Try this as a test:
Remove the distributor cap, leave the rotor on and mark where #1 is on the distributor cap adapter
Take the coil high tension wire off it and place it near a good ground
Connect an LED from the coil - to ground with the positive side to the coil
Use two other LEDs on the injector harness plug (injectors disconnected so as not to flood things)
Crank the engine with the plugs installed so it doesn't spin too fast
Watch the LEDS for flashes.
When rotor passes #1 location, coil and injector bank #1 should flash
When rotor passes #6 location, coil and injector bank #2 should flash

This is an assumption, I do not have a bank fired system to try this on so it may not be correct, it may go coil + bank #1, coil + bank #2, then repeat, but the injector banks should alternate.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: New member, big problem

mat in tn
In reply to this post by ReneH
do not buy a distributor for a 351w! it is taller and will not physically fit. it uses a larger oil pump drive shaft and will not physically fit. stay with the 302 distributor. the information that it provides to the ecu is the same. on another point though the 351w of the same year was carbureted not efi.
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Re: New member, big problem

ReneH
Ok, thanks. First of all here are some images of my setup






René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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Re: New member, big problem

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I am no expert on TFI systems in general but I want to say that the Motorcraft module in your hand appears black while the one on the distributor is grey.

The black modules were not used until the 1994 year and are referred to as 'computer controlled dwell'
These won't work with the earlier 'push start' system, where the grey module itself controls dwell for the ignition coil.

The black module triggers both on the up and the downslope of the signal.

Ford and most of the aftermarket get this wrong in their documentation.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: New member, big problem

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
.... he replaced the ECU today with one for a 351W since that's closer to what he has in an engine now.  But it didn't really change anything from the 302 ECU - both of them have it running really rich.
It's interesting you say this, and I wonder what cam Rene has in his 347 engine.
Is it a 302 firing order (15426378) or HO/351 cam (13726548)?
Could it be as simple as changing the plug wires around???
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: New member, big problem

ReneH
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
No, the motorcraft in my hand was the original. Same color as the distributor.
René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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Re: New member, big problem

ReneH
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
I have a 351w cam inside. But no rollers.
Car runs...plugs are correctly wired.

I have already done a 20mins cam break in...so it runs...not good, but it runs...
René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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Re: New member, big problem

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by ReneH
Sorry about that.
I guess my phone doesn't render the colour very well.  
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: New member, big problem

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by ReneH
Question still comes on the TFI module, is it the correct one? Pictures of the 4 different styles and which pin is which:
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: New member, big problem

ReneH
Hmm...it's definitely Grey and hast those pins for the hall...so I would say it's the 86-93 version...
René's Profile

Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6
Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic
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