NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

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NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
Not a Ford, but still pretty cool. Picked up this bad boy with a full grain bed attached. I removed the steel sides and added a removeable stake and panel setup for loading logs and getting gravel/dirt/mulch. 13 foot dump bed. 345 Gas, 4 speed with 2 speed rear axle. ALL STOCK under the hood and its a DOG.

Plans:
 1. POR15 the frame
 2. Cab repaint
 3. Holley blow through EFI and turbo charger.


1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Wow!  That's a beast!

Are there people that have done the turbo/EFI setup on that engine?  Someone to follow?

If not, what about a 7.3L IDI, which was made by International, and a Banks turbo on that?  But the tranny probably wouldn't bolt up so you'd have to go with a T-19 or ZF5.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
Gary Lewis wrote
Wow!  That's a beast!

Are there people that have done the turbo/EFI setup on that engine?  Someone to follow?

If not, what about a 7.3L IDI, which was made by International, and a Banks turbo on that?  But the tranny probably wouldn't bolt up so you'd have to go with a T-19 or ZF5.
I've thought about putting the International 7.3 in it. I think for how little I use it, the gasser is just fine for now. If I did a swap, I'd probably go for a turbocharged IDI.

It is a beast. There are a lot of 345 International turbo charged Scouts running around online. The compression on this engine is very low, and the heads are what limit this engine, but no one makes a hi performance head. Turbocharging would be a great power adder, and easy to do with the self tuning EFI systems available today.

I've never build a turbo engine. But I am familiar with a few of the steps. Gapping rings, and possibly upgrading the head studs and head gaskets. These 345's have solid gear timing sets, and forged internals already. Under low boost, I might be able to not worry about gapping the rings, but better safe than sorry I think.
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
Wow!  That's a beast!

Are there people that have done the turbo/EFI setup on that engine?  Someone to follow?

If not, what about a 7.3L IDI, which was made by International, and a Banks turbo on that?  But the tranny probably wouldn't bolt up so you'd have to go with a T-19 or ZF5.
I need a PTO transmission....to run the hydraulics for the dump bed. Do T19 or ZF5/6's come with a PTO output?
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Both the T-19 and ZF5 have PTO outputs.  And both come with a bolt pattern that fits the IDI.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
Gary Lewis wrote
Both the T-19 and ZF5 have PTO outputs.  And both come with a bolt pattern that fits the IDI.
All of them do? Or just ones from heavy trucks?
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Gary Lewis
Administrator
They were only used in F250's and heavier since they only came on 460's and IDI's and it took an F250 or more to have those engines, but all of those had PTO outputs.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
So, I assume there was a block-off plate on the transmission for standard F250's without a PTO option? I mean, not all F250's had PTO's.....did they? So, could you convert a non-PTO F250 ZF5 into a PTO ZF5 by removing a plate and installing a shaft?

There is a 7.3IDI ZF5 parts truck sitting 2 miles from me I got that Diesel emblem off of the other day.....2WD, which is fine for the Loadstar.
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
All T-19's and Zf-5's have pto windows on both sides of the gearbox.

Yes, they come with blank-off plates as delivered.
It is down to the upfitter of whatever pump, shaft or generator to install the actual pto.
Ramsey, Dana/Spicer and Chelsea all make pto's to fit the T-19. I've never looked into one for my Zf but the cover plate is obvious.

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
Nice. Thanks Jim. How is the PTO engaged? My Loadstar has a separate lever for engagement of the PTO, and unless I'm ignorant, I think that lever engagement happens inside the transmission. We have any ZF5 diagrams?
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Engagement can be by lever, air or solenoid depending on how the unit is set up.
However it's actuated the PTO gears engage the existing gear in the transmission to impart rotary motion to a shaft or generator.

As I said, I never looked into which manufacturers have a pto for the Zf.
I imagine it has metric module gears instead of arcane diametral pitch.

If I were you I'd start by looking at who makes the hydraulic pump in your International and seeing if they have a pto application for a Zf-5
Part numbers are always good because then you can cross them over.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
You see the cover has a six bolt pattern.
You need to know this, what side the existing pto is on and you already know that an idi will have the close ratio gearset.

In addition to the proper pattern/side/gear pto unit you're going to want a manual or automatic throttle control that will give you approximately 600 output rpm (in most cases)

On the wreckers/flatbeds I drive I just flip a switch, but an old beast like this you'd probably have a knob to pull or wind in, in order to set the engine speed for desired pump rpm.

Parker is another manufacturer that comes to mind. (everything I work with has Ramsey winches and pto's)
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
Great information Jim. I haven't looked at the PTO just yet that I currently have, or the pump. Im sure its whatever came factory in 1972.

I already have manual throttle control on the dash. It's a pull knob like you said. Still running a factory carb, but the intake IIRC has the 4 barrel intake manifold, but with a block of plate for the 2 barrel....I could be wrong about that, but its been awhile since I looked at that intake.

First thing I did to it was to pull off that aweful oil bath air cleaner. That thing was choking the life out of this engine. Regular paper filter gave the monster a little bigger straw to suck from.
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Oil bath is really good in dusty conditions like excavation or harvest.
Paper/gauze filters would be blocked solid in days and stone dust doesn't play!

I didn't know these trucke ever came with a 4V.... at least I don't remember them.  

I'm not sure how your current throttle control would work with an IDI but at least the engine is 'family' with this lumbering beast.  
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
ArdWrknTrk wrote
Oil bath is really good in dusty conditions like excavation or harvest.
Paper/gauze filters would be blocked solid in days and stone dust doesn't play!

I didn't know these trucke ever came with a 4V.... at least I don't remember them.  

I'm not sure how your current throttle control would work with an IDI but at least the engine is 'family' with this lumbering beast.  
Yeah, oil bath was fine as a grain truck I guess. All modern excavation equipment uses paper these days. At least all the stuff I've operated.

I could be wrong on the intake flange. I'll have a look-see soon.

I'm not convinced an IDI would be the best swap. They are pretty gutless. I can't imagine swapping an IDI into this dump truck would gain me much power. These 345ci v8s are setup to be pretty torquey down low, a lot like a diesel. Not sure of the actual torque curves though. Would be nice to see a side by side curve of the 2 stock motors.

This 345 gas has very Stout internals from factory. I'm probably safe turbocharging it, intercooler, and just running a vacuum pump for the brakes. Maybe get an IDI belt driven vacuum pump.
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I'm not sure about the Zf-5 question then?  

If it were me I would avoid a vacuum pump like the plague and find a way to make hydro boost work.
I'm not sure what kind of brake servo and master cylinder you have now.
Did IH make these things themselves or did they just source them from Bendix or someone?
If that's the case it's likely there is a unit that would swap directly across (or with minimal work)

I know Gary is happy with the performance of the one i got for him.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
Discussion on the 7.3/ZF5 was just that, discussion and dreaming I guess. Might be a good option still though.
1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

FuzzFace2
You got to remember this is a TRUCK and not a race truck at that.
Think of it like a 300 six in the 80 - 86 pickup trucks, it gets the job done just not fast!
After driving a trailer truck all day with a 10sp transmission then hoping into my pick up with the 300 six and slow shifting granny 4sp it is not all that slow LOL

Also driving slow gives you time to unwind and enjoy what is around you on the drive.

You may want to look that carb & intake set up over better as I bet it has a governor on it to keep the RPM / speed down. It was used on a lot of large trucks that I drove back in the day.
Now they do it thru a computer be it gas or diesel.

Also on the hand throttle I dont think it is really needed on a dump unlike on a flat bad or tow truck.
On a dump you are inside so you can just push the foot pedal a little.
Also there may be a time you want to stop the bed from going up you could let of the pedal.
But I think the dump I drove it had 2 levers, 1 for the PTO on or off the other was for up / down of the dump body. If in up and no throttle it was slow and if wanted faster give it throttle..
I dont know how his is set up.

Now I can see the throttle to stay at a certain speed along side a combined when loading grain.
Set throttle at say 1500 rpm, 2nd gear and high range in the rear.
I take it you split every gear going up & down, 1st/lo, 1st/hi, 2nd/lo, 2nd/hi, etc when you get to the top side it may be direct/lo up to direct/lo then back into the lower gear/hi and up direct/hi would be top gear/hi.
This was going back to early 80's so could be a little foggy.

Still a cool truck
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

Ray Cecil
FuzzFace2 wrote
You got to remember this is a TRUCK and not a race truck at that.
Think of it like a 300 six in the 80 - 86 pickup trucks, it gets the job done just not fast!
After driving a trailer truck all day with a 10sp transmission then hoping into my pick up with the 300 six and slow shifting granny 4sp it is not all that slow LOL

Also driving slow gives you time to unwind and enjoy what is around you on the drive.

You may want to look that carb & intake set up over better as I bet it has a governor on it to keep the RPM / speed down. It was used on a lot of large trucks that I drove back in the day.
Now they do it thru a computer be it gas or diesel.

Also on the hand throttle I dont think it is really needed on a dump unlike on a flat bad or tow truck.
On a dump you are inside so you can just push the foot pedal a little.
Also there may be a time you want to stop the bed from going up you could let of the pedal.
But I think the dump I drove it had 2 levers, 1 for the PTO on or off the other was for up / down of the dump body. If in up and no throttle it was slow and if wanted faster give it throttle..
I dont know how his is set up.

Now I can see the throttle to stay at a certain speed along side a combined when loading grain.
Set throttle at say 1500 rpm, 2nd gear and high range in the rear.
I take it you split every gear going up & down, 1st/lo, 1st/hi, 2nd/lo, 2nd/hi, etc when you get to the top side it may be direct/lo up to direct/lo then back into the lower gear/hi and up direct/hi would be top gear/hi.
This was going back to early 80's so could be a little foggy.

Still a cool truck
Dave ----

Yeah, not a race truck, but fully loaded with logs, its a struggle getting up and down some of these hills. Needs a little more balls.

Driving this thing isn't a pleasant unwinding experience. Under 55mph it aint bad, anything over that fully loaded it gets dicey. No need to go over 55-60mph in this thing IMHO. Just need more torque getting up and down hills.

Hand throttle is useful while dumping, and setting an rpm to start up a steep hill. Heel and toe is difficult in this thing, even with my big feet.

The hydraulics have a bypass at fully extended. So, the lever actually self dis-engages once fully extended. No need to manually shut off the flow to the dump pistons. It does have 2 levers, disengage the clutch and pull up on the PTO lever, transmission in neutral, and release clutch to drive the PTO. Once that is engaged you can pull back on the hydraulic lever, which has 2 positions. Slow, and not as slow. I think the sticker on the dash says 1000rpm for dumping.....but there is no tach, so your guess is as best you can do.

I split every gear when loaded. No splitting when running empty. I hit the 2 gear in the rear after up to speed empty. Its like an OD for cruising at that point.

There is one hill getting to my house, even when flooring it to 55-60 mph at the bottom, im in 1st over, or 1st crawling 10mph by the time I get to the top.....fully loaded and pulling the tractor.

1988 F250 Supercab Longbed 7.3 IDI, C6, 1356, GEARVENDORS, 4.10 Sterling with autolocker

1986 F150 302, C6, 9" 2.75, Wood Flatbed


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Re: NOT A FORD PROJECT - 1972 INTERNATIONAL

FuzzFace2
Oh I know they can be dogs.
The dump I drove was a 6 ton but fully loaded was 12 tons of asphalt.
The truck wad a Chevy C65 IIRC with a little 4 cly Detroit Diesel turbo with the 5sp / 2sp rear.
First job I went to with the owner / boss he stopped me at the bottom of the steep drive that was bout half mile long.
We change places, he now driving, he put in 1st / lo foot to the floor all the way up to the top.
I was thinking this thing is going to blow at any point it was just screaming!!!!

I know why he did not shift, he really did not know how to drive and did not want to drop a drive shaft or bust an axle. I can tell you I did not drive up the drive way the same way as I shifted and never broke the truck.
He did snap an axle in the other truck, a Ford 5 ton / 10 ton loaded gas that was easier to drive, on that drive, he was animal on equipment LOL

Check to see if the motor has a governor as that can hold a lot back.
You then just need to watch the RPM is all.

Also I take it the tire PSI is to max when loaded as that helps a lot.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100