Wondering about exhaust systems

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Wondering about exhaust systems

Hamm0ckjames
Howdy All,
Been sitting here perusing through posts and strings, enjoying the banter and comeraderie. I've been wondering about the exhaust on my 87 4x4  as it is rotten and has several leaks and missing hangers. I've been looking for tips, pros and cons about going to a dual exhaust set up but just havent found much. I realize it can be a challenge with dual fuel tanks like mine and I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle or not. I'd like to go with a dual set up, headers and a somewhat quiet set of mufflers. Nothing loud mind you, as I plan to do some hunting with this truck. So, any recommendations or suggestions out there?
New Project Rough 1986 F150 4x4 Extra Cab
It's so ugly,,,,, I might have to name it  "Moco".
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I like dual exhausts and plan to have them on both of my trucks.  And I'll use Magnaflow mufflers on both of them as well.

But I don't have any pro tips.  My plan is to take my trucks to a pro somewhere and have systems custom made for them.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Rembrant
In reply to this post by Hamm0ckjames
I'm running a set of BBK shorty headers, 2 1/4" full dual exhaust, and Magnaflow mufflers. I'm quite pleased with the sound of the truck. It has a bit of a rumble but not too loud.

1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I'll probably run shorties on Dad's truck, but Scotty, the Mad Porter, has convinced me that long-tubes are the way to go for Big Blue.  And with my experience with L&L's on it heretofore, I'll probably go back to L&L's.  However, since the EFI 460 heads take different intakes and exhausts then the carb heads, they'll have to be new ones.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

kramttocs
Administrator
I really like the L&L headers. I was going to go with them but ended up with the Hedmans because the L&L ceramic coating was unavailable.  I am very impressed with all of their items I've purchased.
Scott
'Camano' 1986 F250 Supercab XLT Lariat 460/C6
'Chanute' 1980 F350 C&C 400/NP 435 - Gin Pole

But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Hamm0ckjames
Looks like I've got some more homework to do. I didn't realize there were so many out there. And it looks like my wallet is going to take a beating,,,,,,lol

Thank you for all the information guys, I really appreciate it.
New Project Rough 1986 F150 4x4 Extra Cab
It's so ugly,,,,, I might have to name it  "Moco".
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Steve83
Banned User
In reply to this post by Hamm0ckjames
Hamm0ckjames wrote
...looking for tips, pros and cons about going to a dual exhaust...
I've never found any pro to be backed-up by measurable improvement.  Only by butt-dyno data, and sloshing beer.  Among the few trucks I've bought with duals, and the MANY I've found in JYs with duals, I've never encountered even ONE that ran better with duals than all the ones with stock or direct-replacement exhaust.  They invariably run WORSE, louder, hotter, with more leaks & other problems.
Hamm0ckjames wrote
...I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle or not.
Not IME.  Not financially (in MPG, hp, maintenance costs...) or in driving pleasure (noise, heat, leaks, or any noticeable improvement in performance).
Hamm0ckjames wrote
Nothing loud mind you, as I plan to do some hunting with this truck.
Stick with stock.

An exhaust system ISN'T just a hose to carry the smoke out the back; it's actually much more-complex.  It's like a musical instrument - not just for reducing the LOUD noise of exhaust coming out of the heads (try running the engine for a few seconds without the manifolds); but also for removing (scavenging) more of the exhaust gases from the combustion chambers than nothing or a short pipe would.

Imagine each pulse of pressure from an exhaust valve opening & the piston coming up on the exhaust stroke as a tennis ball sliding through the exhaust pipes.  With no pipes, they'd bounce around the engine bay.  With random-shaped pipes, some of them would hit others, making it harder to get out of the cylinder and tailpipe.

But if the pipes are carefully designed & built, they'll line up (tuned exhaust) and flow out the tailpipe smoothly (and quietly) in a steady stream.  That not only allows, but also PULLS more exhaust out of the combustion chambers (as the echo of one pulse passes the exhaust port of the next cylinder) than no exhaust pipe.

And that's how Ford (and most others) design the exhaust; not only the bends & routing, but also the size (I.D.) of the pipes.  So bigger pipes are not better; straighter pipes are not better; and more (dual) pipes are not better, unless they're VERY carefully engineered to work better.

And no one is doing that engineering on a 35-year-old pickup.
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

kramttocs
Administrator
In reply to this post by Hamm0ckjames
They get way up there in price for sure. If not in a hurry check eBay periodically. That's how I found my Hedmans - someone else's project that never happened.

Unless my exhaust guys tell me otherwise, I am leaning towards a single exhaust setup.
Scott
'Camano' 1986 F250 Supercab XLT Lariat 460/C6
'Chanute' 1980 F350 C&C 400/NP 435 - Gin Pole

But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Hamm0ckjames
Thanks Guys, more homework indeed. Pros and cons are what I'm looking for, your experience is good information indeed.
New Project Rough 1986 F150 4x4 Extra Cab
It's so ugly,,,,, I might have to name it  "Moco".
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

kramttocs
Administrator
In reply to this post by Steve83
Steve83 wrote
...and the MANY I've found in JYs with duals, I've never encountered even ONE that ran better with duals than all the ones with stock or direct-replacement exhaust.
The runability of jy trucks might be a bit of a low standard
Scott
'Camano' 1986 F250 Supercab XLT Lariat 460/C6
'Chanute' 1980 F350 C&C 400/NP 435 - Gin Pole

But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Blacktop
I'm hoping eventually to have a dual set up on my truck. But for now, I have a single cherrybomb glasspack, no converter dumping out on the passenger side. It sounds awesome and surprisingly, not as loud as I was expecting.
1984 F150 XLT short bed 4x4 351w 4speed manual
1980 F100 long bed 2wd 300-6 3speed manual project truck
🇬🇧UK based truck enthusiast🇬🇧
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Rembrant
In reply to this post by Steve83
Steve83 wrote
Not IME.  Not financially (in MPG, hp, maintenance costs...) or in driving pleasure (noise, heat, leaks, or any noticeable improvement in performance).
Steve, I think most car and truck enthusiasts would disagree with you regarding the driving pleasure part.


1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
460 4x4 shorties are thin on the vine.
Options are MUCH better for Windsors.

I'd say single out is better for scavenging, and you don't have to mess around with fuel tank heatshields or receiver hitch problems trying to cross over to the left for a symmetrical "look"

I built my exhaust with a 3" stainless Magnaflow tailpipe, the stock 2 1/2" head pipes, a giant 14Ga. all welded school bus muffler from the Walker medium duty catalog with two flanges welded on for the stock head pipe flange.

I can take pics in the daylight if you want, or you can see it coming together on FTE back in '11 sometime....
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Steve83
Banned User
In reply to this post by kramttocs
kramttocs wrote
The runability of jy trucks might be a bit of a low standard
But that fact that they wind up in the JY so soon after the headers & duals says a lot.   To me, at least.

This is what's going on the '93 I'm building:









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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Rembrant
Steve83 wrote
But that fact that they wind up in the JY so soon after the headers & duals says a lot.   To me, at least.
LOL, that's ridiculous! Install a set of headers and duals on a truck, and it works so poorly it ends up in the junkyard soon after???...lol. C'mon Steve83, you can come up with something better than that!
1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

85lebaront2
Administrator
Ok, I am now on my third Ford truck. First was a 1958 F100 originally had the 223 ci six with a 3 speed column shift. After my neighbor found that the 1957 Ranchero he acquired had a terminal case of frame rot, he traded me the 312 with Borg-Warner T85 and overdrive. When I installed it in the F100 I used an FE swap mount kit as the car motor mounts are the same style on the Y-block and FE. The original truck mounts these had were a single pad at the front and a pair on the sides of the clutch housing. The gist of this is, I didn't want the elbow roaster cross over pipe nor the skinny restrictive manifolds. I manged to find a pair of T-bird manifolds and with some creative grinding and fitting was able to get a nice set of dual exhausts using Corvair Turbo mufflers (the real ones, not the ones a lot of places sell. No H pipe, just plain duals that exited under the front part of the bed, just like the factory singles did. Gas tank was behind the seat so no interference.

Second truck was a 1977 F150, originally 300 six and a C4. Once I acquired a pickup camper and started using it, the 300 was ok, C4 questionable. I had been given a bunch of FE parts including a disassembled 390 camper special engine and a C6 for an FE block. This one was planned carefully, first the right side exhaust manifold is truck specific due to the outlet design to clear both the frame and starter, second, due to the front fuel tank location, the system had to go down the right side. I could not see the point in bringing one back across to the left side as it would just create more potential for rust out. What I designed and had my local shop build was right side back straight, left side crossed under the transmission extension housing (non of mine have been or are 4WD) at the point they came together, I had them install an H pipe, then left side Corvair Turbo muffler on edge (oval standing up) followed by the right side allowing the pipes to be fairly close together. Tailpipes ran in the same route the original single took and exited on a 45° angle under the right rear part of the bed. This way they were clear of the camper when it was installed. I wasn't trying to look cool or anything except have a nice free flowing exhaust. It did sound real good especially when you got on it.

Current truck still has the factory muffler after 33 years, it has 2 1/2" dual pipes from the engine, down the right side into the muffler, then out with a 3" tailpipe, over the axle and straight out behind the right side dual wheels. It is pretty low restriction, the only "improvement" I made was at the recommendation of my exhaust shop, I removed the double screen in the end of the tailpipe. Since the truck is a non-catalyst vehicle the screens were flame arrestors in case of a backfire. Wife was following me on a campout while I was towing our 30 foot 5th wheel, cold engine, top of the on ramp and leveling off, I let off the gas, and she said there was a 3 foot flame from the tailpipe when the air pumps didn't divert fast enough resulting in a nice "boom" from it.

Due to experience on cars, no headers for me on a truck, I don't want or need the aggravation of the leaks, rattles and just general PITA from them.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Steve83
Banned User
In reply to this post by Rembrant
Rembrant wrote
...works so poorly it ends up in the junkyard soon after?
I'm not saying it's what would happen if you put duals on yours.  I'm saying it's what I surmise from what I've observed over the past 30 years.  You're entitled to interpret your observations YOUR way, but I'm only going to post MY observations & opinions.

My vehicles have always run great with factory or direct-replacement exhaust, and they run that way substantially longer than everyone I've encountered IRL & online who installs modified exhaust systems.
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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

85lebaront2
Administrator
Steve83 wrote
My vehicles have always run great with factory or direct-replacement exhaust, and they run that way substantially longer than everyone I've encountered IRL & online who installs modified exhaust systems.
That's great as long as you can get something that fits and works. I had a 1971 Colony Park, originally a 429 2 barrel, after a little research I found the only difference in 2 and 4 barrel engines was the intake and carburetor so I installed a used intake and a Holley service replacement carb. Car had a single exhaust, with a pretty good size pipe and muffler. I believe the tailpipe was 2 1/4", the aftermarket decided in a nice example of MBA think that since the exhaust was shared in common with the Ford wagons that a nice 1 7/8" tailpipe was the best seller and all other sizes were dropped. Try to make a 429 4 barrel breathe through a tailpipe designed for a 302 2 barrel, pretty good until you either go to pull out on the interstate or pass someone and you get all the effect of a plugged converter.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - You don't like headers, but with the exception of the driver's side hitting the frame, my L&L's have not given me a bit of problem.  No leaks of any kind.  And, since I know that a piece of 1/4" plate between the perch and the mount will solve the interference problem, when Scotty said I should go with headers I changed my mind.

Actually, his exact statement was "As to the HP numbers they are WITH headers. Manifolds are restrictive, made of a different material than the cast iron heads and WILL over time cause bolt and exhaust bolt ear damage. Avoid them."  And later he said "Stock manifolds will kill hp and tq as I am sure you know. OEM manifolds are made of a different material than the heads, expand at a different rate and cause issues with bolt breakage as well and exhaust ear issues."

So I plan to go with L&L's EFI headers.  Same 1/2" thick flange as the ones I have, but they'll match up to the EFI ports.  Then I can bolt on the old exhaust that I cut off, tack on the cherry bombs, and take it somewhere to have a full exhaust system put on with Magnaflow muffs.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Wondering about exhaust systems

Steve83
Banned User
85lebaront2 wrote
That's great as long as you can get something that fits and works.
I think you CAN get direct-replacement exhaust components for bullnoses.
Gary Lewis wrote
Manifolds are restrictive...
That's pretty vague & subjective.  Ford designed the engine, and the manifolds.  Who can say better than Ford what qualifies as "restrictive"?  I know the original exhaust manifold on my I6 was not particularly breezy, but it had another function (preheating the charge air for cold weather).  But the ones on the 4.9L are widely considered to be at least as good as (if not better than) any headers.
Gary Lewis wrote
"...OEM manifolds are made of a different material than the heads, expand at a different rate and cause issues with bolt breakage as well and exhaust ear issues."
So is he claiming that every header available is made of the same material as Ford heads?  Of course not, which means that statement is irrelevant.

But let's examine it...
The heads aren't actually "cast Iron" - they're steel.  The coefficient of thermal expansion for every common type of steel (except stainless) is 6.5 E-6/°F.  For the cast Iron manifolds, it's 6.7.  Assuming they're assembled at 80°F, the head temperature will rise ~140°F as it reaches normal operating temperature, and the manifold might rise 1,000.  So if the head & manifold are 20" long (on a V8 with four ~4" cylinders plus some extra between them & at each end), the head will grow (20x140x0.0000065)=0.0182", and the manifold will grow 0.134".  So they'll move a total of 0.1158" relative to each other.  Given that Ford puts a small bolt hole in an ear near the center of the manifold, and all others are oversized (meaning the manifold stays roughly centered on the head); that means that the manifold will creep ~0.0579" along the head at each end, when they're at operating temps.  That's not quite 1/16" (0.0625"), which (big surprise) is about the difference in the manifold bolt diameter to the hole diameter.





You'd almost think Ford designed it to tolerate that temperature change!
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