Transmissions

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Transmissions

Danny G
Figured I would move this to a more appropriate forum than the Marketplace.

Gary and Ray got me off on this tangent lol.

My truck currently has a C6 and I want overdrive so I have been kicking around swapping in a AOD, until Gary dropped this nugget:

Gary Lewis wrote
The AOD wasn't put in anything with more torque than a 302 or a 300.  Never behind the 351W, and certainly never behind a 460 or the diesel.  In stock form they can't handle much torque and are very sensitive to having their linkage adjusted correctly.  But, I've been told that with the right aftermarket parts they can be pretty stout.  But, they won't fit a 460 or diesel.

The E4OD requires a controller.  There are standalone ones for about $750 and up.  Or you can do as I'm doing for Dad's truck and use Ford's EEC system to control it.  But it is a good tranny and came behind all of Ford's engines.  With its 4 speeds and lock-up torque converter it is much more efficient than the C6.
So that got me thinking If a E4OD can go, is it possible that the 4R100 could also with a stand alone computer? The 4R100 being the upgrade, but also tends to be cheaper. I even considered putting in a gear vendors unit with my C6, that gives it 2.46(1st)/1.92(1stO)/1.46(2nd)/1.14(2ndO)/1.00(3rd) and an over drive of 0.78, but the price of a GV unit being around $3k. A built E4OD/4R100 can be had for $2100/$1900 respectively + price of the controller and they are geared 2.71(1st)/1.54(2nd)/1.00(3rd) and an OD of 0.71. It would seem like the E4OD/4R100 is the better way to go.

And then if you still wanted to get silly with the GV and had money you wanted to just burn the gearing changes to 2.71(1st)/2.11(1stO)/1.54(2nd)/1.20(2ndO)/1.00(3rd)/0.78(3rdO) and an OD of 0.71 and then a double OD of 0.55. 0.55 with a 3.55 rear would be cruising at about 1400 rpms @65mph with 31" tires right in the torque curve, if you have the 3.00 rear like me then its about 1160rpms.

1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Transmissions

Gary Lewis
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I agree with your thinking.  If you don't need the creeper gear of a manual, like the ZF5, then an E4OD or 4R100.  And there are standalone controllers for them.  US Shift has one for the E4OD and the 4R100.

But, there are guys saying that you can get a Ford EEC controller for a diesel/E4OD combo and use it.  Supposedly it costs less than something like the US Shift or Baumann controllers.  But, the aftermarket ones also have some learning built in, and I think that would be very beneficial.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Transmissions

Danny G
Do both transmissions have the same bolt pattern?  Wonder what other considerations need to be taken for a 300 I6. If parts are swapable from the C6 should be able to use what I got to mate the two up (this is new territory for me).
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Transmissions

Gary Lewis
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TheScatch wrote
Do both transmissions have the same bolt pattern?
For the same engine, yes.  


TheScatch wrote
Wonder what other considerations need to be taken for a 300 I6.
 There were different "levels" of either transmission, meaning that a transmission for a 300 had different components than one for a 460 or the diesel.  Different clutch packs and even different sprag clutches if I remember correctly.  So if you have a very mild 300 you wouldn't have as much to do to the tranny as if you have a beast of a 300.

TheScatch wrote
If parts are swapable from the C6 should be able to use what I got to mate the two up (this is new territory for me).
  I don't know what parts interchange, but it would make sense that the gear sets do.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Transmissions

Danny G
I might give Monster Transmissions a call and talk to them about either a E4OD or a 4R100. They rebuild both and are supposed to be a reliable builder of stout tranny's. Heck if you are worried about AOD reliability, their beefed up AODs are rated for 450HP and 600HP applications. Their E4OD/4R100's are rated at 450hp/900ftlbs. The AOD uses a different kickdown? vs the C6/E4OD/4R100 correct?
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Transmissions

Gary Lewis
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The AOD has a TV linkage, which I think means "throttle valve".  The C6 has a kickdown linkage that only is used to drop the tranny down a notch.  But since the E4 and 4R are electronic, I don't think they have any throttle linkage.

And calling a reputable company is a good idea.  I called a few and found that they build really STOUT transmissions, far more than what I thought I needed.  So wound up using a local transmission company that seemed to know what they were doing.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Transmissions

85lebaront2
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The E4OD, 4R7XW, 4R100 and a lot of the transaxles are full computer control. The manual lever selects the hydraulics, but the shift points, line pressure etc. are all computer controlled. The AOD is the only Ford transmission built after 1959 with a throttle pressure valve and associated linkage, C3, C4, C5, and C6 along with the 2 speed (1959-1964) A4LD and FMX use a downshift valve and linkage. This is a vestigial piece of the old throttle valve, with only the forced downshift portion used.

All the hydraulically controlled transmissions use a vacuum modulator for engine load input. Due to the fact that beyond about 3/4 throttle the manifold vacuum only slightly changes, most of these (including GM) use a booster valve in the hydraulics.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Transmissions

Danny G
85lebaront2 wrote
The E4OD, 4R7XW, 4R100 and a lot of the transaxles are full computer control. The manual lever selects the hydraulics, but the shift points, line pressure etc. are all computer controlled. The AOD is the only Ford transmission built after 1959 with a throttle pressure valve and associated linkage, C3, C4, C5, and C6 along with the 2 speed (1959-1964) A4LD and FMX use a downshift valve and linkage. This is a vestigial piece of the old throttle valve, with only the forced downshift portion used.

All the hydraulically controlled transmissions use a vacuum modulator for engine load input. Due to the fact that beyond about 3/4 throttle the manifold vacuum only slightly changes, most of these (including GM) use a booster valve in the hydraulics.

Learning more every day.

So in the case of say swapping out the C6 for a E4OD/4R100 where it is computer controlled, how does one get that downshift signal get sent to the transmission?
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Transmissions

85lebaront2
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Baumann Controls makes a computer controller for many automatics, it is called an Optishift. And full electronic transmission will need a standalone controller, unless you already have a truck with EFI, then it is a matter of finding an EEC for your engine/transmission combination. The downshift signal is simply the EEC or transmission controller deciding between throttle position, road speed. current gear and engine RPM that a lower gear is needed. The other thing, both the transmissions you mention have lock up torque converters, that are also computer controlled.

Example, I am climbing a grade with a load and pulling a heavy trailer, speed limit is 55 mph, Darth is cruising at 1500 rpm, rpm and speed drop, at 80% throttle the torque converter clutch unlocks, but it is also enough throttle and speed loss, to initiate a downshift from 4 to 3. Downshift, unlocked converter, RPM goes to 2700, then as the TCC re-engages, drops to 2200. This is with a 460 and 3.55 rear, 4 215/85R16 tires.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Transmissions

Danny G
I think I am following. The tentative final plan is to do a duraspark conversion to remove the EEC so I can do a FiTech EFI install and not have to worry about the stock computer causing issues, that along with a OD trans.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew