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Throttle Cable swap

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Rusty_S85

Throttle Cable swap

Anyone here ever did a 2V to 4V throttle cable swap before?

I been talking with some guys that are working on same era trucks as these on the sniper owners group and a few of them are not able to get 100% wot with the OE cable, one guy states about 75% open throttle.

I looked up my truck and found E1TZ-9A758-E which is a 19-3/4" long cable and listed for 255, 302, 351-2/B.

But I see for a listing number E4TZ-9A758-D listed as 84/85 351-4/B listed as 22 1/2" long. There is also another one that doesnt state 2/b or 4/b but its E1TZ-9A758-B and is 255, 302, 351, and 400 that is 21 1/2" long.

So I am curious has anyone thrown in a 4V throttle cable that is longer in place of a 2V one? Does anyone know if there is a difference in 2V and 4V cruise control attachment?

Trying to get this figured out before I reach the point of finding out I wont get full throttle just like the others. I thought of possibly cutting the OE cable disassembling it and getting like a lokar cable and just rob the cable itself and feed it through the OE cable sleeve but I dont know if the NOS cruise control clip that pins into the throttle cable end for the bead chain would work with the aftermarket lokar cable end.

But if the E4TZ-9A758-D is right for doing a conversion from 2V to 4V then I rather just spend the extra money then figure out on the cruise control chain later on if that is not long enough.

"Old Blue" - '56 Fairlane Town Sedan - 292-4V, Ford-O-Matic transmission, 3.22:1
'63 Belair 2dr sdn - 283-4V, Powerglide transmission, 4.56:1
'78 Cougar XR7 - 351-2V, FMX transmission, 2.75:1 9inch
"Bruno" - '82 F150 Flareside - 302-2V, C6 transmission, 2.75:1 9inch, 31x10.50-15 BFG KO2

Rembrant

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Rusty_S85 wrote

Anyone here ever did a 2V to 4V throttle cable swap before?

To be honest, I don't think I was aware that there was a difference. I went from the stock 2bbl carb and iron intake on my 302 and swapped in an Edelbrock Performer 289 intake, Holley 4bbl carb on a 1" aluminum spacer, and I simply re-used my original 1984 throttle cable. It just snapped in place with the stock bracket and has been working fine for going on 2 years now. Mind you, my truck is manual trans with no cruise control, so it is a pretty simple affair all things considered. I don't think I have had any issues with WOT, but I'll check it next time I have the air cleaner off the engine. This is an older picture, but nothing has changed regarding the throttle cable installation.

1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

85lebaront2

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rusty_S85

Back when I had my shop, Ford products were always a problem on throttle linkage or cables going from a 2 to 4 barrel carburetor. With the linkage, if it was a pull rod, sometimes there was enough adjustment that it would work, push style (used late 60s into the 70s) was a real problem, I made more than a few out of rod stock.

On the cables, Chrysler had the best setup, the casing was adjustable, GM products, Chevy in particular, usually aftermarket manifolds had the correct hole location. Ford uses a longer "front" portion to reach the throttle arm on a 4 barrel, relocating the attachment (bracket) on the intake will sometimes solve the problem.

Biggest issue with aftermarket "universal" carburetors or injection throttle bodies, they are made with a Chevy throttle lever which (a) is longer that a Ford and (b) the angle of it is further forward than a Ford. If the sniper has the extra holes that the Carter AFB and Holley performance carbs have, then the lower rear hole is almost perfect for the factory Ford cable. Cruise, if you have the bead chain "cable" at worst case a hardware store may have extra chain that fits.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Administrator

I've played with this rather extensively recently, which you can see starting roughly with this post on Big Blue's Transformation thread.

First, there's no difference between a 2V cable and a 4V cable other than maybe length. And the length difference between engines is only there to make the cable fit nicely into the space available. It doesn't do anything for how much throttle opening you get. All of the cables move the end of the cable the same distance when you move the throttle as that is determined by the pedal.

And Bill is right about the position of the stud on the carb/EFI. As you'll see in BB's thread, I measured three carbs I have and found this for the distance from the center of the shaft to the center of the stud:

Street Demon: 1.060"

Holley 4180C: 1.210"

Edelbrock 1406: 1.300"

Since the end of the cable is only going to move a certain distance when you floor the pedal, if you aren't getting full throttle there are only two things you can do:

1. Make sure that your throttle cable bracket is positioned such that there's only a tiny bit of slack when the linkage is at idle.

2. Move the ball closer to the center of the throttle shaft.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

71_badmach

Re: Throttle Cable swap

In reply to this post by Rusty_S85

Rusty, I received my aftermarket 24" cable (Summit brand) today... it is substantially less $ than a Lokar, that you may want to look at. My truck doesn't have cruise either, though so your setup sounds a little more involved. Going with a Lokar for the AOD kickdown cable, at least that's the plan.

Dave
85 F150 EFI 302
Ohio

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

In reply to this post by Rembrant

See thats what I thought, i thought it would fit just fine the worse case the gas pedal would be pulled up slightly higher than it was with the 2V as the cable is pulled more forward to reach the throttle ball.

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

The above is a stock photo that shows the mount. Its more of a ford setup with the ford C6 kick down but the two holes on the bottom are for TV cable for TH250/350 or 700R4.

The only thing is I will be using a extension to raise the pivot ball up about 1" above the OE location as holley designed the ball mount too short and it has a very harsh tip in on the throttle. With the extension it makes it softer and more like a throttle rod linkage feel of ease or a cable with no return spring. The extension mounts to one of the TV cable mounts as well as the OE ball mount and I plan on mounting mine on the forward TH250/350 mount which will put the ball at the same distance forward of the throttle shaft but still providing an extra 1" of leverage. If I mount it the other way it would put the pivot ball more forward.

This is why I am concerned cause I seen quite a few people with fords citing they cant get WOT but I dont now their setup. I have the OE bracket and I thought Edelbrock put the throttle cable mounting point on the intake in the proper place to provide proper cable interaction.

Its why Ive been thinking of a work around, possibly chopping the cable I have but maintaining the plastic housing and just use a new cable and modify it to work but be longer than the OE setup to reach properly.

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Well thats what I mean is the length but I wasnt sure if it was a straight drop in or if there was something else that could cause a problem such as the casing being longer for the 4V which will make it bunch up and not fit the firewall to cable mount on the intake.

Im not sure about if I will have a problem or not but I have now see three people with 80 - 86 F-series trucks citing that they couldnt use OE throttle cable as the sniper wouldnt go full throttle. I dont know if they were running the plain sniper which is more like a edelbrock with the throttle cable kicked outboard so far which would take more cable to reach or if it is the stealth like I have which is based off the holley 4150.

Way I see it is if a holley 4150 dual feed carb will bolt on with the OE cable then this should work as well. Not sure once I add the throttle extension to raise the throttle ball up 2" from the shaft to provide more leverage to get a smoother feel to the throttle.

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

In reply to this post by 71_badmach

That was one idea I had, get a cheapie cable to rob the cable itself and then snip the OE cable and use the aftermarket cable to custom make it the length it needs to work and then see if I can make the cruise control adapter fit the aftermarket snap for the throttle ball.

But I really dont like the thought of doing that especially if I could buy a slightly longer cable and get it to reach. But I hate to hunt down a NOS 351w 4bbl cable if its not going to work properly. Part of me is concerned the extra length might be in the plastic sleeve and not the end of the sleeve to the clip for the throttle ball.

85lebaront2

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Administrator

Let me put this in simplest terms I can, if you use a longer throttle lever, then the arc the ball travels in will be greater, It is actually the chord of the arc if you remember your high school geometry. That being said, if the stock ford throttle cable travel is 2" and it acts on a 1 1/4" lever length, the actual rotation angle is around 80° - 85° rather than a full 90°. I am not saying these are the actual values! If you are looking for a "smoother" tip in, the factory used two different methods on the EFI systems, one is a relay lever that as it moves through its arc effectively increases it's pull on the actual throttle shaft, the other is a circle segment with the cable wrapped over it. The first is what Ford used on the EFI engines, the second is what Chrysler used on their turbocharged 4 cyls. The last variation is a curved section that decreases in radius as it opens further, this way, like Ford's lever system, the initial opening is slow for the cable travel, but the last part is fast, this is because the initial opening has a large change in airflow for a little travel, essentially very sensitive, the latter part has a much smaller change for the same travel.

Putting a longer throttle lever and expecting a cable and accelerator pedal designed for a shorter one to open it fully just isn't going to work. Maybe Lokar or someone else has a cable system that will satisfy your needs.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

thing is I dont know how the sniper throttle lever is compared to carburetors. Part of me thinks it is on the shorter side compared to a carburetor.

But the 1" extension for the throttle lever is the recommended fix for stiff throttle pedals because you dont use any springs, you are fighting the over powered springs. If one could remove the springs that they supply one could in theory use carb springs to pull back to closed which might would provide better feel. But I dont think it would because the feel is a lot stiffer with the engine running than with it off as the engine vacuum is pulling on the closed throttle plates.

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

This is the lever extension

This is from a mustang forum where they are showing the difference from stock sniper to the lever extension. This is also mounted in the 700R4 TV cable port which leans the extension slightly forward. I would use it on the TH350 mount that is forward which would shift the new throttle ball location towards the rear.

And looking at it without measurements it looks like the new throttle ball location would be what is the large opening on this Holley while the standard ball location is where the ball location is on the holley.

Gary Lewis

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Bill is exactly right. As I posted earlier, the dimensions I measured are:

Holley 4180C: 1.210"

Edelbrock 1406: 1.300"

With the Edelbrock's 1.30" from center of the throttle shaft to the center of the ball the Ford linkage will JUST get full throttle if you have essentially no slack at idle. If there is any slack you won't get full throttl.
And if the ball is any higher at all it is physically impossible to get full throttle with stock linkage.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

So measure from the center of the throttle shaft to the center of the ball stud. Ill measure it real quick and see what it is to the stock ball mount cause I know the extension is stated to raise it 1" above which would probably be way too much.

Gary Lewis

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Administrator

Yes. I played a bunch with throttle cables last week and I found that to run an Eddy with the ball in that hole you have to have it adjusted very close. No slack. It would be better with the ball in a lower hole, but there isn't one.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rusty_S85

A - the large hole on the Holley is where Chevrolet throttle rods went on with a rubber bushing. That is way further out than a Ford throttle.

B - The Chevrolet throttle hole is a bit forward of the Ford and way forward of the Chrysler locations on carburetors, both of which have much shorter throttle arms.

C - IF you can get the starting point of the throttle travel almost at a right angle to the mounting surface, you will have the longest lever length at idle, progressing to a shorter length as you open the throttle

D - I don't know how old you are, but I was adapting carburetors to some damn odd applications in the late 60s, and a number of Holley's adapter kits were pirated from Preston Carburetion work I did then. Fuel injection was something Corvettes and European cars had then.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

The stock ball height from center of shaft to center of ball mount is 1.10"

As far as the extension goes I dont know how long it is to make measurements to see how long it would be. Ive seen it stated it is 1" higher up than the ball stud mount but no actual specs so I cant get a measurement till I get mine in. I ordered mine last monday and a week and a half later still no shipment from jegs.

If it is right around the top of the dog leg on the throttle then from center of shaft to that point is just a hair under 1.75". Which means there is no way it could be 1" higher. I think it was just a generalization cause even Holley doesnt list specs like that.

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Yep, I even seen some fords with rods use that opening as well.

But all of this is going off guesses as I dont have the extension in hand yet to know. I know some said its 1" higher. But I dont truly know cause no where on line is there a spec for it.

Im just glad I found this out because I need to form a plan for the throttle cable. I could clip the cable I have and install a generic cable that is longer with a clamp on end and set it after I get the IAC set. this way I can set it to have no slack as once in the 2 to 10% IAC range the idle screw never has to be touched again as the IAC controls the idle.

I guess I could run it without the extension but I hate the thought of that cause every one I installed, it was a very touchy snappy pedal on tip in when you touch the throttle pedal. it goes from 2% to 4% TPS and snaps open to 40% TPS when the pedal finally moves and it moves so far so quick resulting in quick jackrabbit starts which is something I dont want which is why I ordered the extension in the first place as Ive installed them and they work great. But never used OE cables though everything ive done install wise was with aftermarket builds with aftermarket cables and no cruise control.

Gary Lewis

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Administrator

Rusty_S85 wrote

I could clip the cable I have and install a generic cable that is longer with a clamp on end and set it after I get the IAC set.

I think you are missing the point. You can do whatever you want with the cable making it longer or shorter, but nothing you do will change how much the end of it moves when you floor the pedal.

In the drawing below you see two red lines, the bottom of which is the pivot point for the pedal and the top being where the cable attaches. As long as that distance doesn't change the cable will always move exactly the same distance on the end, regardless of whether the cable is 1" long or 1 mile long.

The only way to change how much the end of the cable moves is to change the distance between the two red lines. And since you can't change the pivot point the only thing you can do is to raise the attachment point for the cable.

Ford had a special cable for the 300 six:

80/ F-U150/350 E7TZ 9725-A Use when floor carpet/mat interference is noted

I think it raised the attachment point for the cable. So, you could find one of those or add an extension to the pedal you have. Or, just lower the ball on the throttle.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Rusty_S85

Re: Throttle Cable swap

Well lowering the ball on the arm will make the tip in horrible and make the truck undriveable. I would rather save the $1,800 I would spend on this fuel injection setup and just run a carb and fight with that before having a stiff throttle that snaps open resulting in jerking and hard pulling off idle like you are hotrodding it.

As far as the pivot goes, with an aftermarket throttle cable you have adjustment to make it work. What it does is it pulls the pedal up higher by pulling the lever part of the throttle towards the firewall. Making the cable longer with in reason to reach while pulling it closer to the firewall would give you more pull as the pedal is higher up off the floor and as you step on the pedal it is can go down further which provides more pull.

Ive done this before with aftermarket cables on numerous custom installs before and ive raised the pedal as high as it was hitting the built in stop of the pedal.

I know it can be done with aftermarket cables. My problem is an aftermarket cable will not work with the OE bracketry and I could get an aftermarket bracketry that bolts onto the throttle body mount but this would not have the clip part for the cruise control and I do not think the cruise control cable is long enough to move it from the rear part of the intake manifold up to the rear bolts on the carb mount.

But as I said earlier, if I dont use the throttle lever extension it is 1.10" from center of the throttle shaft to the center of the ball mount. I dont know what the center to center is of the upper two holes on the extension which could be added to the 1.10" measurement to give me a center of throttle shaft to center of ball mount measurement. But I do not believe center to center for those two holes would be 0.20" though which would prevent it from exceeding 1.30"

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Throttle Cable swap

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Street Demon: 1.060"

Holley 4180C: 1.210"

Edelbrock 1406: 1.300"

1. Make sure that your throttle cable bracket is positioned such that there's only a tiny bit of slack when the linkage is at idle. 2. Move the ball closer to the center of the throttle shaft.

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Holley 4180C: 1.210"

Edelbrock 1406: 1.300"

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80/ F-U150/350 E7TZ 9725-A Use when floor carpet/mat interference is noted

Re: Throttle Cable swap

1. Make sure that your throttle cable bracket is positioned such that there's only a tiny bit of slack when the linkage is at idle.

2. Move the ball closer to the center of the throttle shaft.