The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

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The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
Well the c6 in the bronco behind the 6.9 idi finally gave up the ghost.  It has been reluctant to downshift into 1st and also sluggish more and more lately.  I have resigned myself a long time ago to driving it until it died, as i was planning to swap to a manual.  

I have also, as always, started collecting the parts to accomplish this a few years ago.  My plans are always to get the parts at the right price and have them stored away waiting for the day they are needed.  

This method has typically served me pretty well.  I have 2 separate t19 transmissions to choose from already, an extra transfer case, the pedal set, clutch master and slave cylinders.  I just ordered a new clutch last night and even sprang for the firewall reinforcing plate from the Bronco Graveyard.  

While I am currently unable to jump into the project until those parts get shipped in I have been able to start some of the more boring work.

This morning I pulled the manual steering column out of one of my parts trucks (boring).  I also have been planning to swap in a hydroboost brake unit and since everything has to come out to install the firewall reinforcement I may as well do this at the same time.  So now the interesting stuff starts...

I researched the differences between a hydroboost pedal and the standard vacuum pedal.  Looks like the pin was 3/4 of an inch higher.  Sounded easy enough to me to work with so no need to hunt for a new pedal.  Just modify the manual pedal I already have.

The starting point.

Pulled the pedal out of the box and marked the pins new location.

So out the pedal came and marked the location of the pin.  It is pretty easy to just grind the pin welds off, press the pin out, drill a new hole, press the pin back in, weld the pin, and finally weld the old pin hole closed.












Now throw on some black undercoat and reinstall in the pedal box.




This was honestly about a 1 hour modification since I had the pedals already out.  The drill bit i used was the next smaller size I could conveniently find.  Since the pin was being preased in it was no big deal to go undersized.  Just used the drill bit to work the hole a little bigger to make the hole tapered a little.  

That is the end of the first update.  I am headed back to pull more parts off the bronco.  On a side note, while working on this I saw the pedal was stamped with a part number and said power on it.  This got me thinking and I am sure there is an expert out there that can determine this.  Was there a manual brake system available on the bullnose trucks/Broncos?  If so did it use a pedal with a pin located in a different position?  It would seem to me a manual brake system could use a pedal with a pin located more like the hydroboost system uses.  I would be curious to see a manual brake pedal if there was one available to see the distance the pin is located away from the pivot.
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
Steering columns out and mounting bracket swapped around.









So the steering column from the 1991 will 100% bolt in without issue, just have to swap out the mounting bracket.  Pretty easy.

Additionally, I thought I would post a picture of my work around for the instrument cluster bezel being loose.  It wasn't really an issue except it allowed a lot of the dash vent flow to escape and not be directed at me.  I have the a/c working quite well now days so I needed the vents to function properly.



Since the dash and dash pad are really beyond effective at holding the bezel tight with screws, I used a lighter and some stainless lock wire to burn a couple holes through the bezel.  Then I was able to thread the stainless wire through the holes and tie the wire behind the instrument cluster mounting screws.  While I do admit it isn't as nice as a new part, I think it works quite nicely.




1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Wow!  You are really on a roll!  Well done.  

As for the non-power brake pedal, I can get a part number that won't tell us anything about the height of the pin.  The only way to find that out is to find someone who has one.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
It just so happens the transmission going out is exactly the motivation I have been needing to get moving on the modifications again.



Pedals are out of the bronco.  Now I am starting to try and get all the parts in order to install the hydroboost.

I have a hydroboost unit out of an f-superduty, I already bought a replacement pressure hose for a saginaw 6.2 truck to run the line up to the hydroboost (I think that was the original application), I have the f-superduty line to the steering box, and the return is pretty simple.  I am planning to try and plumb up something similar to Jonathan's (Ford F834) style he had an image posted of with a 4 port spin on filter head and cooler.  I "think" I am going to run a 1991 1 1/8" master cylinder off of my parts f250 with the hydroboost unit so I do not have to run the plastic style brake reservoir.  If I remember right I will need to replace the pressure valve on the frame rail right under the master cylinder due to running the f250 style master.  I am not sure what brake lines I will need yet, but I am hoping to rob everything off the part truck.  If it works out should be pretty simple.

I cannot start installing anything until my firewall reinforcment arrives.  



I ordered it a couple of days ago now so I am hoping by friday.  Once it gets here I can get the pedals, column, and brakes pretty well all back together.  Then I plan to move onto removing the c6.  

I am sure questions and problems will arise, but I am hoping for very few parts needing to be shipped in to reduce down time.

The next question is can I use the clutch master out of the 1991 truck?  I think I will pop the hood on the 85 stick I have and compare it to the 91 parts truck.  Hoping it will work, then all I will need is the clutch hose.  I am thinking I may tow the bronco up to my buddy's house to use a 2 post lift to do the actual transmission swapping, but I am trying to get all the little details hammered out to make that a 1 afternoon project.  

More updates to follow.  (The more I post, the more I feel accountable to keep going...)
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
This post was updated on .
I also meant to mention that the manual brake pedal idea had me thinking because I would imagine the location of the pin vs pivot in a manual truck would be more like that of the hydroboost pedal.  Giving the driver more force, but with less total travel.  I had thought perhaps the hydroboost and manual pedals would have a similar enough geometry that a manual pedal could be used for a hydroboost install, but I imagine they are just as hard to come by as the hydroboost units.  Regardless the modification required (2) 3/32" 7018 welding rods, and less than an hour.  Not worth hunting for a different pedal for me.  It was just a passing thought while I worked on that modification.
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

salans7
Get ready to beat on and manipulate that firewall brace, we all had to adjust them to fit as not every firewall is the exact same. I think I put an hour or two just into making the brace fit the firewall.
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
Thanks for the insight.  I am ok with creative adjustments.  This is a factory auto bronco so I am hopeful it will not be too bad.  Just looking forward to it getting here so I can start finishing items on the to do list instead of just taking crap apart.
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

grumpin
Nice job! Thanks for documenting it.
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by IDIBronco
Check the stud spacing on your F250 master vs the holes in your truck.  In my case a 1990 F250 master wouldn't fit, but a 1995 F450 master did fit, perfectly.

As for the proportioning valve, I didn't have to change it out.  But I did have to change out the lines down to it from the master.  And that's where the 1990 F250's lines worked perfectly.  The later masters have the front/rear swapped vs the Bullnose masters, and the lines from the 1990 F250 fit the master and fit the proportioning valve.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco

I am planning on running the newer F-superduty hydroboost booster, I will check the spacing of the masters to the boosters bolt patterns.  I will use whatever master I can find that fits the booster.  I am not scared of bending up a new brake line.  I am hopeful the 1991 F250 master will bolt up to the about 1994 F-Superduty hydroboost booster and the 1991 F250 lines hook up to the stock propotioning valve.  I do not recall why I thought the proportioning valve needed to be changed.  Perhaps because I have a 10.25 rear axle already and the d44hd style knuckles modified and installed on the front d44 ttb.  I think it might help make the brakes more even.

However, I need to research everything a bit more and especially the proportioning valve differences yet.  Just seemed since I had f250 brakes I would need the f250 proportioning valve.
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yes, I said it incorrectly.  The booster bolts to the cab and the master bolts to the booster.  But in my case the '95 hydroboost unit wouldn't take the '90 master I had.  The bolt spacing was wrong.  But the '95 F450's master fit.  And then the '90 F250 lines went perfectly from that to the '85 proportioning valve.

As for the proportioning valve, this snippet from our page (Documentation/Driveline/Brakes) says there were several different ones, but your Bronco should have the same one as Big Blue.  So the later lines should fit.  BUT, I can't tell you that it works as I don't have BB on the road yet.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
Well, as soon as I get ambitious this morning I am going to head out and get started investigating the options on the brakes.  Nothing is really better for me to know what's what then laying parts side by side and comparing.  More pictures to follow today.

I am trying to document this project in ways that will be helpful to others.  I am no expert.  If anyone needs a different angle, or something else pictured just let me know.  The pictures make sense to me, but I am seeing it in person.  I may not be able to answer questions, but I will say when i do not know.
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
..........(Documentation/Driveline/Brakes) says there were several different ones, but your Bronco should have the same one as Big Blue.  So the later lines should fit.  BUT, I can't tell you that it works as I don't have BB on the road yet.
I don't think this is correct

The Bronco and the 150 are the same.
The 250/350 have another combination valve (pull v/s push, to bleed)
I remember Chris pointing this out because his 250 didn't work the way the manual told him.

At least the Bronco's didn't get that leveling arm on the rear axle.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
In reply to this post by IDIBronco
Ok.  The bronco booster and master are now out.


I even threw the hydroboost into the pedal bracket for good measure.  it looks like my pin location modification has an alignment that 'should' work, assembly and test drive will be the judge.





The F-Superduty master.





I see the casting number on the hydroboost is an e8 so perhaps it is from a bit older truck than I recalled.

The f250 master





 It looks like the master to booster mount on all 3 of my master cylinders will work (according to tape measure, so not 100% sure, but close enough to make work if not perfect).  So now the question arises of what master to run.  I had been running a stock bronco master with the 10.25 and d44hd style brakes.  The f250 master cylinder which has a plastic reservoir (I was mistaken, I had thought it was the old style all cast metal unit, but I must have been thinking of the 86f350 truck), the stock bronco (unknown diameter as it isn't marked externally that I could find), or run the F-Superduty master which is 1 5/16".  I would also think the upgraded size would result in a much lower pedal effort requirement to stop.  I would anticipate a few hitting the windshield type braking events in the learning process to retrain my muscle memory for braking... always an exciting thought.  Are there any downsides to running a 1 5/16" master cylinder?  I would imagine the added volumetric size of the master would require less pedal travel, to compensate for adjusted pin length of the modified pedal for the hydroboost.  I wonder if the F-Superduty master parts will be harder to come by in the future should I need a new master or a rebuild?  Pretty hard to speculate on that, but I would be pretty sure they would be more expensive than a higher volume production model (like the 1 1/8").  Anyone with experience/opinions please speak up as I have a couple days before the parts get here that allow reassembly to occur.

 I am leaning towards the 1 1/8" bore of the F250 since I have brakes that match that trucks design, but I would like to upgrade to rear discs eventually not sure what the recommended master cylinder for that would be.

Is there any reason a person couldn't take the stock brake lines to the master cylinder and just cut the ends off and reflare the proper size fitting on that you need.  It seems like a pretty simple solution to the wrong size fitting to me.  If I mess the line up it is easy enough to bend and double flare a new line up.  

1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
ArdWrknTrk wrote
I don't think this is correct

The Bronco and the 150 are the same.
The 250/350 have another combination valve (pull v/s push, to bleed)
I remember Chris pointing this out because his 250 didn't work the way the manual told him.

At least the Bronco's didn't get that leveling arm on the rear axle.
I guess this is the type of issue I was remembering that had me thinking I needed to swap the valve on the frame.  
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by IDIBronco
I will be surprised if the F250 master will fit the hydroboost.  My '90 F250 master wouldn't.  The one that fit looks exactly like yours - 1 5/16".

Where did you find the ID # on the hydroboost unit?  Mine is installed and I didn't see it with a quick look.  But if I knew where to look I might confirm what its # is.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by IDIBronco
I am almost certain that your later lines from the parts truck will fit the master and go into your proportioning valve.  I have an '85 F250HD proportioning valve, '90 F250HD lines, and '95 F450 master and hydroboost unit, and it all bolted together perfectly.

But, don't forget to pull the switch on the front/bottom of the master and plug the hole.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis




On the top right side (from front of truck) behind the port.  
1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Looks like we have the same one.  Here's mine.  You'll see we have the same ID #'s: E8TA 2B560-AA.  But the #'s after that are different, although I don't know what they represent.  Date codes?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: The replacing of a c6 with t19. More than just the swap

IDIBronco
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis




I stand corrected.  F-Superduty on left F-250 on right.

Gary is 100% correct the 1991 f250 master will not fit.  The fittings look to be the same so I can probably rob the brake lines from the f250 to make it work.

It also makes the decision on what master to work that much easier.

1985 Bronco
6.9 IDI
C6 T19
hydroboost brakes

8 Lug coil sprung D44ttb
10.25 3:55
warn classic bumper
8274 warn winch
Saginaw Conversion

1986 Ford F350 "Dump Truck"
6.9 IDI
T19
8'x12'x4' hydraulic dump bed
front mounted tow bar

1981 Ford F350 "Welding Truck"
300 I6
T18
Welders bed with hoist
onboard air
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