Stick vs Auto

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Stick vs Auto

Vic Roma
Looking for opinions from you guys who’ve done this longer than me. I have an auto, but every time I see a floor shifter, I get gearbox envy.

What do you guys prefer, stick shift or auto?

By all means list your usage (eg daily driver, or just dedicated to heavy work), and reasons for preference (eg fuel consumption, ease of use), etc.

Is stick too bothersome for heavy hauling? Is auto too boring for cruising?
1984 Bronco 351 Holley Sniper EFI, 3 Speed Ford Auto.
1986 Bronco 302 EFI, AOD, Eddie Bauer, with 3G alternator.
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Re: Stick vs Auto

grumpin
I like manuals! I own automatics.

I had a 1988 F250 with the 7.3 and ZF5. I owned it before I had my left hip replaced. It was bothersome to painful in traffic.

I would have to try a truck before I bought one with a manual. I’ve had smaller vehicles with manuals and no problems, curious how I’d do now in a full size truck.

I just feel like I’m driving with a manual!
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona
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Re: Stick vs Auto

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Vic Roma
When the dust settles I'll have one of each, as you can see from the signature.

Dad's truck is being set up as fast, albeit still a capable 4wd truck.  The E4OD will make it shift quickly while accelerating with no lost time between shifts.  And, reasonable economy due to the OD and lock-up torque converter.

Big Blue is the work horse as well as offroader.  The ZF5 will give the low 1st gear to get anything rolling, and coupled with the low ratio in the transfer case it'll crawl nicely.

Having said that, Ford's documentation gives the trucks with autos a higher GVWR for towing, as shown in the towing specs: Documentation/Specifications/Towing.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Stick vs Auto

Vic Roma
Gary, your website needs to be saved for posterity! Such a great resource, but you know that already...

I guess you nailed with have one of each.

Can I then add on to my questions list:

Which is the best gearbox for each style (stick v auto)?

What’s the best engine they should be mated to?

By “best”, I’m sure it’s relative and personal preference, but there has to be consensus as to which one(s) lead the pack, such as smoothness of gear changes, robustness, parts, etc.

Soon I may pick up an old Bronco which I will scavenge for parts. Sadly, the motor, gearbox, steering column (and likely everything attached beneath) is all gone. I remember someone wise on here writing something like ‘buy the truck you want, don’t try to build it’ and that’s obviously sound financial advice. But...

If I have the opportunity to create a four-wheeled Frankenstein, I can make more informed decisions.
1984 Bronco 351 Holley Sniper EFI, 3 Speed Ford Auto.
1986 Bronco 302 EFI, AOD, Eddie Bauer, with 3G alternator.
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Re: Stick vs Auto

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I certainly plan to save the website for posterity.  Both of my kids know how important it is to me, so I'm sure they will preserve it.  And one of the many reasons I want to move it to Wordpress is the ease with which it can be backed up.

Anyway, before we can answer your questions we need to know a bit more about what you want to do with the vehicle.  You mentioned "heavy hauling".  How much of that, and how heavy do you plan to do?

For heavy hauling you need torque in the engine.  To me, that leaves the 302 out.  And while the 300 Six can probably tow anything, it won't necessarily do it easily.  So I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a 351W.  (A 351M can be made to be as strong as a 351W, but if you are building one you really ought to make it a 400.)  So that leaves the 400, 460, and IDI.  But even the IDI w/o a turbo isn't going to tow very rapidly.

But, you also mentioned cruising.  Are you thinking long distance or just short trips to enjoy the truck?  If there's going to be much long-distance cruising, the 460 isn't the best.

Back to manual transmissions.  Big Blue has had a T19 from birth.  And Rusty, the '81 F150 w/a built 351M, had an NP435.  And while they are stout transmissions, the lack of an overdrive makes them very poor for cruising.  But the ZF5 is a truck transmission, and even one with good syncro's doesn't like to be shifted rapidly.  So you need to think about what your needs and wants are.  If you aren't going to "tow heavy" then maybe one of the lighter-duty OD transmissions?

As for the auto, I'm not a C6 fan.  Yes, they are stout.  But they are thirsty.  With three speeds, no overdrive, and no lockup torque converter they are not cruising-friendly.  So that probably means E4OD, but that takes a computer to control it.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Stick vs Auto

LARIAT 85
In reply to this post by Vic Roma
I prefer the automatic.

I personally do not like to see that long, manual gear stick sticking out of the floor.  These trucks don't have much room as-is, and that stick takes up even more room.  If a third person sits in the middle, they are going to be quite embarrassed, especially if it is a female.

Lucille:  1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors:  Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain:  AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.



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Re: Stick vs Auto

salans7
I prefer manual. My daily driver started life as an automatic, but when the transmission blew up at 78,000 miles, I was frustrated. I wanted something I could trust, and I didn't feel that I could trust an automatic. It ended up being cheaper to swap my truck to a manual than it was to rebuild the automatic, so out came all of the automatic stuff and in went the manual stuff.

I didn't know how to drive stick before I swapped my truck. I watched a few videos and then took the truck out at around 2am and taught myself. It was rough, but it didn't take long before I was hooked. Now I can't see myself owning another automatic. At least not one with more than 70,000 miles.

Manuals definitely have their downfalls, and modern automatics are far superior for towing, which is why as of 2016, no full size trucks come with manuals. It's understandable considering Americans are becoming increasingly lazy and nobody wants to row through gears anymore.
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Re: Stick vs Auto

LARIAT 85
I prefer an automatic in almost *any* pickup truck.

For a sports car, I much prefer a manual.
Lucille:  1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors:  Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain:  AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.



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Re: Stick vs Auto

reamer
Gary, Was it a lot of "trial and error" getting the EOD to play nice?
What did you have to do to get it to function? buy a "computer?" program it? 
1986 F-150 Flareside 4x4, 351, 4-v, ZF5 speed. AC, Cruise, Tilt, Slider, Digital clock, Radio, Lariat seat, Pwr doors/locks
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Re: Stick vs Auto

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I'm not there yet, but Bill tells me it will work as he's using the same system on Darth - an EEC-V ECU.  It'll control both the EFI as well as the E4OD.  Yes, Ford never EFI'd a 400, but there's no problem in doing so as all of the components are available.

I'm using Trick Flow's 351C upper and lower plenum with injector bungs, and then adapters to fit the lower plenum to the wider M-block.  I'll be using a 351W ECU, so the theory is that the open-loop maps will be close enough.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Stick vs Auto

Nothing Special
In reply to this post by Vic Roma
I hate it when a transmission won't shift when I want it to, or shifts when I don't want it to.  When I'm going up a hill I want to open the throttle, maybe all the way, but with the truck engine (oh, I also hate trucks that don't have truck engines) lugging down, maybe losing just a little speed.  I do not want the trans to downshift and pin me back in the seat.  But when I pull out to pass someone I want the trans to downshift right NOW so the truck will actually accelerate.  Automatics are controlled by your right foot, which is also controlling the engine.  There's no way for one control to make the trans and engine both do what I want all the time.  So I need a separate way to manually control the trans.

When I was shopping for my truck I was looking for an '80 - '97 gas powered crew cab with a manual transmission.  I looked for 3 years.  Then I opened it up to include automatics and had my current truck 1 month later.

As far as which automatic is best, I've had two trucks with E4ODs.  I hate the trans in both of those trucks much less than I've hated any other autos I've driven.  They seem to shift when I want and not when I don't  better than any others.  They still shift wrong pretty often, but at least not most of the time (the auto trans in my '02 F-350 diesel NEVER shifted like I wanted.  I really hated driving that truck!).

I also like compression braking.  When going down a mountain in a truck towing a heavy trailer it's imperative to be able to keep the speed in control with minimal use of brakes.  Manual transmissions do that very well, most autos, not so much.  The 5R110W in my motorhome actually does compression brake very effectively when it's in tow/haul mode, but it's so effective that I can't leave it in tow/haul mode normally, because it "hits the brakes" way too hard too many times.

And off-road I really prefer a clutch to a torque converter.  Partly it's the compression braking (being able to crawl down a steep hill without using the brakes), but I also prefer it climbing.  When you press your tires against a ledge with an auto the vehicle stops and the torque converter slips.  So you give it more gas, the engine speeds up quite a bit, and eventually it climbs.  But once you clear the ledge the resistance goes away and with the engine spinning so fast the vehicle jumps forward.  With a clutch you might stall the engine, but with low gearing and a torquey engine you can usually give it enough gas to keep it running, so it climbs.  But you don't have the engine spinning fast so as you top the ledge the vehicle doesn't jump forward as hard.

I've had a lot of automatics because it's all my wife will drive and it's really hard to find used vehicles with manuals (especially motorhomes!).  But I really hate automatics.
Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins
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Re: Stick vs Auto

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bob - Why don't you really tell us how you feel?  Don't lay it between the lines, to quote Peter, Paul, & Mary.  

Seriously though, I agree with all you said.  But let me add two data points.  First, using Core Tuning's Binary Editor on an EEC-V you have the ability to determine at what throttle opening you want the torque converter on an E4OD to unlock and when you want it to downshift.  If I remember correctly, Bill has Darth set to unlock at 80% throttle and to downshift at 100%.

Second, the 6R80 in Blue does a remarkable job in the Tow/Haul mode.  Coming back from Lake Powell pulling the Sea Ray there's a really long and steep descent that's posted at 45 MPH.  I touched the brakes at the top and it started downshifting.  We went down the hill at 45 MPH and 4000 RPM w/o touching the brakes again.  But I could have very easily downshifted it myself and done the same thing.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Stick vs Auto

Nothing Special
But as you note, it's how I feel.  It's not how I think others should feel.  That's all purely opinion, and while it's a fairly strongly held opinion (as you noted ), that doesn't make anyone else's opinion any less valid.

I have considered getting an aftermarket controller to try to dial the E4OD in better to what I want it to do.  But unfortunately I'm probably not keeping this truck a lot longer.  I was thinking I might try to "restore" it, but it's getting WAY too rusty so I'll be looking for a replacement in the next year or two I hope.  And I'm really planning on that truck having a manual, even if I have to swap it in.

And yes, the tow/haul mode in the 5R110W in my motorhome (towing my Bronco) handled the steep mountain grades great.  Like you I often had to give it some brake to get it to start compression braking, but then I could let off the brake and it kept things in control.  The problem I had with it was if I left in in tow/haul in normal driving it would abruptly down shift as I was lightly braking coming up to a red light, pitching us forward in the seats.  I know, I complained about not having enough control and now I'm complaining that I DO have a control (the tow/haul switch) that I have to use!  But I still prefer manual trannies!
Bob
Sorry, no '80 - '86 Ford trucks
"Oswald": 1997 F-250HD crew cab short box, 460, E4OD, 4.10 gears
"Pluto": 1971 Bronco, 302, NV3550 5 speed, Atlas 4.3:1 transfer case, 33" tires
"the motorhome": 2015 E-450-based 28' class C motorhome, 6.8L V-10
"the Dodge": 2007 Dodge 2500, 6.7L Cummins
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Re: Stick vs Auto

grumpin
That’s the one thing I really dislike about the C6, you can’t torque it up a hill. Being a three speed it almost scares me when it downshifts!

I didn’t care for the E4OD in the 1994 F250 I had, it was troublesome. It was a 460 with 4.10 gearing also.

The E4OD in my Bronco is great, 3.55 gearing and it will let you torque up a hill to a point. I think the E4OD behind a diesel or 460 is weak and should be “beefed up”.
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona
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Re: Stick vs Auto

delco1946
No one has mentioned where you typically drive in the country. I grew up in Michigan with all sorts of sticks, and it was fun/ very useful. But mid Michigan has less traffic, more open roads, and is fairly flat. I now live in the Portland metro area, drive routinely in stop and go traffic, and encounter more hills. I once test drove a 1960s sport car out here that I was interested in buying and even that got rather annoying considering the very frequent stops/ stops lights you encounter. It could be part laziness but it was just irritating. I also rarely ever see a full size truck that’s a manual suggesting in my mind that it’s probably more difficult in such a big vehicle.
Christopher in Portland Or. 1981 F250 Ranger XLT 4x4 trailer special 351M, and auto C6
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Re: Stick vs Auto

Rembrant
Personally, I think I'd prefer a stick shift as long as I didn't have to drive in any stop and go traffic.

I had been driving diesel Volkswagens with manual transmissions for quite a few years, but the newer Golf that I purchased this spring has a DSG automatic. Months later and thousands of miles later I am still pushing for the imaginary clutch pedal on occasion, and pushing the shifter into neutral...lol.

I always preferred the manual trans for the improved MPG and just the sportier feel of it, and the ability to shift it when I wanted, etc. But sitting in stop and go traffic...for 45 minutes sometimes, moving a car length at a time...sometimes on an incline...it really makes one hate a manual trans...lol.

In any case, I love the auto in this car and will likely never buy another manual for a daily driver.

My truck on the other hand, it's a 5spd and I love it. It is however just for fair weather leisure use, and will rarely ever sit in traffic for any reason. Like I said above, if it was a daily driver, I'd likely be swapping an auto into it.
1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: Stick vs Auto

FuzzFace2
Rembrant wrote
I always preferred the manual trans for the improved MPG and just the sportier feel of it, and the ability to shift it when I wanted, etc. But sitting in stop and go traffic...for 45 minutes sometimes, moving a car length at a time...sometimes on an incline...it really makes one hate a manual trans...lol.
I think one of the reasons you don't see a stick in new full size trucks and guessing cars too is the new autos run by computer keep the motor in the MPG band the EPA wants unlike autos of years gone by that did not run off a computer or had lock up converters.

My DD SUV is an auto with lock up and OD and I do hit stop & go on the way home that is not too bad so taking the pick up truck a few times to work I can live with.
Now my work truck is a stick, 10 speed trailer truck, you only use the clutch to start & stop and float the gears the rest of thetime. I can tell you after a 10 to 14+ hour day it is nice to drive the auto.

I drove 1 auto truck we have just to move 4 trailers 2 miles and I hated it. I would rather drop the trailer hooked to my truck than drive that auto.
I also hear from the cement truck drivers next door their auto trucks shift a lot different than the one I drove so maybe I would like that type but I don't see the company getting any more auto trucks.

As a note new truck drivers have their lic. marked what they can & can not drive.
If you test on an auto truck you can ONLY drive an auto truck. Dont know about stick if you can also drive auto & stick or just stick? It is because it takes skill to double clutch shift a stick truck.
Dave ----

btw if I ever get my street AMC Javelin on the road it has a 5sp OD but that is my fun car to sport around in LOL
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: Stick vs Auto

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by grumpin
grumpin wrote
That’s the one thing I really dislike about the C6, you can’t torque it up a hill. Being a three speed it almost scares me when it downshifts!
Au contraire!  If you remove the kickdown linkage on the C6 it won't downshift until you pull it down with the shift lever.  I ran Rusty that way for several years 'cause I was too cheap to invest in the Edelbrock adapter to fit the linkage to the carb.  Then I got to liking it and didn't want to change.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Stick vs Auto

85lebaront2
Administrator
Well, since my name was invoked I guess I need to add my input. First, I have driven a lot of different vehicles in my life, from little econo-boxes to USMC trucks. Even when I was a lot younger I hated getting stuck in heavy, slow moving traffic with a manual transmission, even the relatively light clutches on the Alfa-Romeo 5 speed column shift or the Omni and Horizon, or even my 1961 Mercedes-Benz 220Sb. In a performance vehicle, such as my 1966 GT350 or my best friend's 2000 Corvette 6 speed, much worse.

For control, yes, a manual transmission is great, performance driving, running back roads etc. Crawling around in the sand dunes at Little Creek Amphibious base in a 1960s USMC M37B1 (4 speed with a granny low and only 3 & 4 synchronized) I learned the 1st in high transfer case was the same as 2nd low transfer case and got very adept at double clutching.

My first car was a 1964 V8 (not a Sprint) Falcon with a 3 speed column shift, when I started towing my boat I ended up converting it from a 4 speed Borg-Warner T10 to a well modified C4. The first automatic transmission car I owned was a 1963 Oldsmobile Jetfire I added to the Shelby as more of a DD in bad weather because it had an interesting AC system that could be run along with the defroster (they were completely separate units) to help defog windows.

First pickup was a 1958 F100, 223 six and 3 speed, even after I put the 312 in it it was still a 3 speed, just now a B-W T85 with OD. The 1977 F150 was a 300 six and C4 (not a strong combination) it ended up with a 390 and C6. Darth came with a carbureted 460 and C6, towed great, but even with the 3.55 rear ran a lot of RPM at 55 with a load behind (2700 rpm). Now EFI 460 and E4OD, same conditions, rpm in 3rd with the converter clutch unlocked, 2700, clutch lock in, 2200.

As Gary mentioned, the E4OD is controlled by the PCM, and with the EEC-V Ford, for government mandated update requirements (PCM can be reflashed with software updates eliminating the need for a complete replacement) has the means to update the program without replacing the PCM as was needed on the earlier systems. I (and Gary) have the software and hardware to do this, it takes about 15 mins to do a reflash. I have my torque converter clutch unlock set at 80% throttle or just about where a forced downshift will occur. I let the system work like a manual transmission in that respect, letting the torque of the 460 do the work as the torque converter is the biggest heat source and is the reason for the stock E4ODs bad reputation as far as failures go.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Stick vs Auto

grumpin
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
grumpin wrote
That’s the one thing I really dislike about the C6, you can’t torque it up a hill. Being a three speed it almost scares me when it downshifts!
Au contraire!  If you remove the kickdown linkage on the C6 it won't downshift until you pull it down with the shift lever.  I ran Rusty that way for several years 'cause I was too cheap to invest in the Edelbrock adapter to fit the linkage to the carb.  Then I got to liking it and didn't want to change.
Thought about doing that, but like the quick downshift in lower speed situations. May try it someday.
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona
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