Starting issues

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Re: Starting issues

Invisibleman13
*UPDATE* After having a long think about it, I pulled the starter relay off of my parts truck before I spent money on another one. After hooking everything back up, I turned the key and now I'm getting a click instead of nothing. So, I'm pulling the starter to get it checked out and I'll let you all know what I come up with. Thanks for all the help.
1980 F150 Custom 4X4
1984 F150 XLT 4X2
1985 Bronco XLT
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Re: Starting issues

Invisibleman13
Took the starter to get it checked and, yes, it was bad. Got it exchanged, came home, put it on and all I'm getting is the relay to click. I've double checked all the hook ups (starter, ground, battery) and all looks good.I'm at a loss at this point. Thinking about having it towed to the repair shop
1980 F150 Custom 4X4
1984 F150 XLT 4X2
1985 Bronco XLT
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Re: Starting issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
What happens if you touch the cables directly?

Try taking all the spark plugs out.

Still no joy?

Try turning the crankshaft with a 15/16 socket.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting issues

Invisibleman13
Touching the cables together causes a spark, but nothing from the starter. Tried jumping with a screwdriver just caused the relay to click. The truck ran great two weeks ago until the starter went out.
1980 F150 Custom 4X4
1984 F150 XLT 4X2
1985 Bronco XLT
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Re: Starting issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
But you don't get the staccato clicking indicative of a low battery?

Why did you go to the trouble of changing everything when the starter went out?

Are you able to turn the engine over by hand?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting issues

Invisibleman13
Sorry, I've been away a few days. The reason I changed everything was the negative terminal was cracked, the positive cable and starter cable had the insulation worn through and I figured since I'd gone that far, I might as well change the starter relay. The engine will turn over by hand. No clicking like would accompany a dead battery, although the starter is now acting like it's "binding"
1980 F150 Custom 4X4
1984 F150 XLT 4X2
1985 Bronco XLT
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Re: Starting issues

BullnoseLuvr
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
Years ago (the late seventies) I went through two or three "rebuilt" starters on my '69 Charger before I got one that worked.  I opened one up and it was untouched inside.  They had repainted it and sold it as rebuilt.  Bastards.

Just a few years ago a "rebuilt" alternator blew up the battery, fried five computers and a relay, and burnt out all the lights that were on at the time of the "event" on an early nineties Nissan Sentra that I had installed the POS alternator on for a friend.  Fortunately I found all the computers and relay at a u-pull-it for practially nothing and put the car back on the road.  It was a really great car.

Mark
‘84 F150 4x4 351W 4sp. Regular cab, long bed, all original. '69 Continental MK III. Older restoration. '95 Saab 900S Convertible. '05 Saab 9-3 ARC Convertible 2.0T. Lime Yellow. '09 Saab 9-3 AERO Convertible 2.8T. Sand Beige top. '13 MINI Cooper Factory JCW 6sp. '01 H-D Sportster. '03 Yamaha FZ-1.
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Re: Starting issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I know there are quality rebuilders out there, but I only buy new now.
Gary has the charts and documentation for PMGR starters and 130A 3G somewhere on this site.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Starter info, including PMGR's, is at Documentation/Engines/Starters.  In my opinion, PMGR is the only way to go.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Starting issues

Invisibleman13
Been a few days since I've done some work, was waiting for the weather to clear. OK, so I'm back at it with the no start issue. Yesterday I got a new starter solenoid, went with a Motorcraft instead of one from AdvanceO'NAPAZone. I've got everything hooked back up, turn the key, and the solenoid gives a single "click" and that's all. I currently have the starter hooked up (electric) and sitting on the core support. Seems like the solenoid is getting power, it's just isn't powering the starter. Any suggestions?
1980 F150 Custom 4X4
1984 F150 XLT 4X2
1985 Bronco XLT
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Re: Starting issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
When the relay clicks do you have full battery voltage at the starter end of the cable?

You're sure the relay case has a good (clean metal) ground to the fender, and it is tightly bolted on?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Invisibleman13
First, you got lucky!  If that starter had gotten juice it would have jumped off that core support in a heart beat.  Unless by "sitting" you mean you have it lashed down.

Ever heard of "equal but opposite reaction"?  When the armature turns one way the housing will turn the other at the same speed unless it is well and truly contained.  I've seen guys lay the starter on the ground, put a 2x4 on top of it, and roll the vehicle onto the 2x4 to ensure the starter doesn't go anywhere when testing.

Anyway, assuming your starter and relay are good you either have a bad cable or a bad connection.  A way to check is via the voltage drop approach: Documentation/Electrical/Voltage Drop Testing.  Put the positive lead of your DVM on the battery's positive post and the negative lead on the relay's battery post and turn the key.  You may see the voltage go to battery voltage, which means either the cable is bad or the connections are bad.  Similarly, test across the relay by going battery to relay's starter terminal.  Keep going until you find the problem.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Starting issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
Also, how's the starter grounded when on the core support?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Starting issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
I think the positive and ground cables are probably alright.
He says the power windows work and doesn't mention them being sluggish.
(Yes, I realize the windows are only 30A)

But that suggests solenoid (new... again)
Starter, possible but also 'new' and I think he had it checked
Starter Cable, which is also new and seems hard to screw up.

Again, I'm at a loss given what I know about it.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
A 351W doesn't have a ground cable to the starter.  Right?  So, if the starter is just laying on the radiator support......
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Starting issues

kramttocs
Administrator
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
This one is interesting as it's pretty much down to the bare essentials at this point.

Like mentioned, I'd test voltage on the solenoid starter output when the key is in crank/or terminals jumped. Starter disconnected.

Then secure the starter on the ground and use some jumper cables to test it using the same battery that's in the truck.

Then do the same test but put the solenoid and the battery-to-solenoid cable in the mix. So just move the positive jumper cable from the battery to the solenoid output.

At this point it sounds like the same song second verse...




Scott
'Camano' 1986 F250 Supercab XLT Lariat 460/C6
'Chanute' 1980 F350 C&C 400/NP 435 - Gin Pole

But there ain't nothin' wrong with the radio
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Re: Starting issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary,

He has to be using jumper cables at this point.

I DID ask, waaay back if the block connection was clean.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Starting issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I'm not comfortable assuming that he's using jumpers cables.  I hope so, but I'm just not comfortable assuming he is.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Starting issues

Invisibleman13
It starts!!! Just not sure why. The only thing I did different was, cut off a few wires for the aftermarket LED light, that was never hook up and pulled the relay for it. I turned the key and it cranked.
1980 F150 Custom 4X4
1984 F150 XLT 4X2
1985 Bronco XLT
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Re: Starting issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Congrat's!  Now if it quits as you hook the light up you'll know you did something wrong.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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