Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

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Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford


Here sits my 1985 F150 XLT Lariat with 89,000 original miles, summer 2014. A fairly solid truck, neglected slightly, but maintained well. The 4x2 makes it nice to cruise in, the less than desirable AOD is capable of decent mileage from the carbureted 302, and the long bed allows for some large cargo to be transported.

Since it the cab was in good shape and the engine still youngish....let’s just change all of that after we pirate the cab for my “poor man’s 1 ton” (see appropriate thread for details).

Exhibit A:

“Off with the old cab”

Exhibit B:

“The crappy ‘donor’ cab from the diesel truck”

Plans include (slightly) moving the body back for better weight distribution to the rear, along with (more drastically) moving the engine and trans back for the same reason, 4x4 swap, full time hubs, gnarly tires, chopping the frame down to accommodate a short bed, suspension tricks on the cheap (for now), and lots & lots of cutting. Things will likely be stripped or relocated and I’m hoping to incorporate cutting brakes in the front to aid in tight turns. I’m flying blind and guessing at a lot of how to do this, but stay tuned for more!

Here’s a shot of 1/2 of a twin I-beam and twin traction beam front axle under the same truck!



Beefing up the Dana 44 TTB with a “center shaft” from a Dana 50, and clearancing the housing for said extra beef.



Full time 4x4 hubs from a ‘78 F150!



Not pictured are the late model aluminum “bullet hole” F150 rims or the P78 Gateway Buckshot mudders intended for this rip roaring pile of parts.
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Wow!  This is going to be MAJOR!  Maybe I missed it, but is it to be a really short bed?  And how will you do the front brakes?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
You missed nothing, sir! The truck is currently a standard cab/8ft bed. I ended up trading the original bed, which looked far worse than pictures show, for a really nice ‘95 short bed.
Thanks again to F834, I plan to copy his frame shortening technique on my F150. The only exception being I’ll have an extra 2” of frame up front since the cab will be sitting just a hair rearward. It’ll look a little funny, but I’m chopping the lower body line out of the front fenders to allow my tires room to travel, and I’ll use some lower trim as a template to “match” the rear wheel wells to the front (I despise the look of a later model bed on a bully). Clear as mud? 😜

The brakes will use a cutting brake “master cylinder” from a rail buggy to split the function of the front brakes if I need it. Otherwise they’ll function normally. It’ll just require some creative routing of brake line from the factory master cylinder (front line) down to this contraption. I hope I’m explaining this well enough. Sorry if I’m not.
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I got it, I got it, I think I got it!  I'm curious how much difference the shift to the rear will make in weight distribution.  Did you weigh it before?

On the brakes, will you have a valve or switch that cuts off brake pressure to one or the other front brake?  (I don't know how they do it on rail buggies.)
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
To be honest, no I haven’t weighed it. I know little in the way of weight distribution/transfer, but I’m told this should help acceleration, and then balance when jumping. Ideally, I’d drive a short bed truck and *then* move the engine rearward to see how differently it performed. But I admit ignorance on the subject. That’s a lot of why I’m only trying 2” on the cab/nose instead of something more drastic.

As for the cutting brakes, here’s what google found for me. And it’s explained much better than I can hope to:

“They work by plumbing your brake lines into each lever's mini-master cylinder before it runs to each wheel brake or axle. Then when you want to lock it up, simply pull the lever and that wheel/slave cylinder locks the binders up. Then hold the lever, make your maneuver, let the lever go, and keep driving.”

Here’s the link to the article I’m paraphrasing:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/wheels-tires/131-0707-cutting-brakes/

Here are pictures!!

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Wow, that's pretty serious stuff on the brakes.  I guess I was expecting a switch that runs a solenoid under the hood, like the line control that was mentioned.  A couple of those and you could lock a brake on or bypass it.  But those lever-style valves look like they are meant for frequent usage.

So, perhaps I didn't fully understand what you are going to do with the truck?  I remember something about "jumps" and "race".  But,  are to tell use more?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

FuzzFace2
In reply to this post by Blucollar4xford
As said it will be a big project.

On the steering brakes, no I did not read about it but had a buggy on our off road race team.
On the buggy they go on the rear wheels as the front is so light it would do nothing even with normal steering, so the steering brake works like a bulldozer and pivots at the rear wheels.

Now on a 4x4 I don't know why 1- you would need steering brakes, 2- if they would even work right front or rear.
On a 4x4 if you can you set up the gear ratios so the front is pulling the rear like 4.10 front / 4.11 rear, it will pull the front around the corners.
Most of the time we ran what the 4x4 cam with and never had any issues even in 100 yard sand drags.
That same weekend we may also have a timed race thru the woods and still did not need steering brakes.

Now don't go saying you are not doing sand drags or racing thru the woods.
We had to use the same trucks on Moto-X tracks with 10 other trucks for 10 laps and never needed steering brakes. You drove the track like a road race track setting up the turns, brake before them and gas out. And yes we also had jumps and tight U-turns that normal Moto-X tracks had.

With a locker in the rear you could steer with the gas pedal. Brake before the turn, cut the wheel a little and gas it and the rear comes right around.
I can also tell you your hands / arms will be busy. Between steering wheel and shifting when will you have time to use the steering brake?

How are the rest of the trucks set up in the class you will be running in? Do they use steering brakes?
Is what you are planning even allowed in the class? What you plan may put you in a real high class and you may be out classed for the money invested.
It is always best to start in the lowest class and work up as just to add the needed safety equipment to pass tech is a lot of work.
I know as I have done it not only for off road racing but for road racing/auto cross & drag racing.

I am not putting you down for what you want to do just letting you know what we went thru on our trucks.

BTW we had 4 Jeeps 2-cj5, cj7, commando, 2-Toytoa L/C and a bar frame buggy on the "Nuts Race Team".
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Dave - In the link there's the pic shown below.  That and discussions about really tight turns, basically like my zero-turn mower, makes me think he's going to be doing some serious climbing instead of racing.


Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

FuzzFace2
Gary Lewis wrote
Dave - In the link there's the pic shown below.  That and discussions about really tight turns, basically like my zero-turn mower, makes me think he's going to be doing some serious climbing instead of racing.


That's more bouncing than jumping in my book!
I can see a lot of broken parts in his future!
I wonder how well the TTB will work in that type of racing as most I am sure use a straight front axle front & rear.

I guess that front brake steering may work in that case as I/we never did that type of racing.

If they have classes he needs to see what he can and can not do before he gets into building this truck.
If he has just 1 thing it could put him in a higher class and not be competitive.
That's what happened to me with my auto cross / road race car. It was the grille that put me in the unlimited class (full on race cars with slicks) with a modify (suspension with street tires) stock motor car.

Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
In reply to this post by FuzzFace2
FuzzFace, excellent points all around (and I truly appreciate the advice, as you sound pretty seasoned when it comes to racing). Most of what dictates classes around here is suspension work and how much engine you’ve got. It’s sort of a screwed up deal, as you’ll see a beater Toyota Camry and a $100,000 purpose built rig race back to back.
But your talking about moto-x tracks and mentioning autocross isn’t far off the mark. Basically these are done at a lot of county fairs and/or anywhere you’ll see a monster truck race. All the local races around me are done the day after motocross and they just flatten the track slightly so you get 4-6’ of air instead of 15’. But the tracks are very tight, short, and bumpy. Average time for the one at my county fair this year was about a minute and a half.

Classes aside, the theory behind the cutting brakes is when you approach a hair pin corner, you lock up the front wheel closest to the turn, your passenger side wheel continues to pull and the rear pushes you around the corner. It took me forever to figure out that’s how these guys corner so quickly, because they wouldn’t even let up on the throttle and there are a lot of spools and welded rear ends that hit the track.

I wish I could post a video to show you what exactly it is I’m doing. The problem is, it doesn’t go by one name either. Tough truck, rough truck, pro-arena, stadium truck, or street warrior are all things I’ve seen this style of racing called. One thing is for sure; it’s a blast!!
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
In reply to this post by FuzzFace2
FuzzFace, also funny you should mention the TTB! There are a lot of solid axle (coil over suspension with full hydraulic steering) rigs that literally grace the track. But there are two base types of vehicles you see, that do worth a damn, at these races:

Anything centered around a TTB and Jeep Cherokees. Chevy and dodge stuff doesn’t show or isn’t worth watching unless they’re heavily modded.

The only thing I can think of to compare, is autocross crossed with motocross. The successful guys that show up to race (not the guy that shows up to take the old Chevy on one last ride before the bone pile) use a lot of tricks from Baja trucks. There are a few 4x2 rigs that do well, too. I think anything up to 10th place pays, though it’s usually $50. But that’s usually your entry fee + $30 on top of that.
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
Here are a couple decent videos of what I’m talking about. Even found a TTB equipped Bronco!

https://youtu.be/zjxddv_FTR4

https://youtu.be/s1qndEs7BOg

It’s nothing really too fancy and hasn’t evolved a whole lot since I’ve seen it (locally, anyway), but the guys that have the expensive rigs seems to be growing within the last 5-6 years.
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
That's interesting!  That Bronco seemed to be pretty well balanced, and the TTB was working well.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
In reply to this post by Blucollar4xford
Today I got a really good start on shortening the frame. I mimicked F834’s method, though I used a crappy flux core welder and a (very) uneven driveway. I also only trimmed 14” out of the frame instead of 16”, since I plan on moving the front half of he body back 2”. Since I’ve reiterated my plans yet again, here are some pictures of my mess!


“Finished product”


14” of hole

Top, bottom, & middle slices.
The pesky...”hump”

Knowing what I know now, I should’ve moved my cuts back an inch or so to avoid this step in the bottom flange. Had I done this, it would’ve matched up perfectly. Also, needed heavier alignment tabs. But I made do, regardless.

Here’s the most consistent weld I had. My welder doesnt feed worth a damn, and is especially picky about what it’s welding.

Again I say, it’s a mess. It’ll work with a little polishing, but I definitely need a new/different welder! Thankfully, it’s not going to see the road.
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Looking good.  But, are you going to fishplate it?  In  other words, place a piece of steel across the joint on the inside of the frame and weld it on thorougly?  That makes the joint much stronger.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
Yes sir, that’s actually on my list of things to do today. But I do have a question concerning that:

Do I weld it solid, or do I leave some open spots? I’ve always heard going all the way around “seal welding” will actually weaken the joint since there’s no give. This doesn’t make much sense to me, but I also don’t like the idea of a nook or cranny that will trap water or any other element, especially on such a “vulnerable” spot. I’m heavily considering straps along the bottom flange of the frame to further bolster it.

Thoughts or opinions?
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Your idea of straps along the top and bottom would be good.  In a C or I configuration of a beam the web is mainly there to keep the upper and lower parts the proper distance apart.  That's why Ford was able to do the Swiss Cheese frames in '80 and '81.  So welding straps above and below would give you the most strength - for a vertical load.

But if you are using the truck off-road you'll be twisting the frame, and top/bottom straps won't give as much strength in that situation as a plate on the side.  So, were I to do it I'd put straps top, bottom, and sides.

As for fully welding, you do not want to have water sitting in there.  So if you are like me and doubt your ability to make a water-tight weld, you might want to leave a spot for water to get out.  But I'd use weld-through primer between the straps to give as much protection as is possible against rust.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
I was thinking the straps mostly for insurance against jumping. But you bring up a good point about all the twisting and flexing the frame does.

I’ve also heard the frames like to eventually buckle at the bend (obviously both sides) near where the proportioning valve is. So I’m currently dreaming up something to try to reinforce that area.
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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Which way do the frames buckle there?  You may be able to reinforce the frame by welding strap on the top and bottom and welding it on  And to prevent creating a hard spot where all the forces are focused you could taper the ends of the straps.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Spare parts, the slowest race truck to date

Blucollar4xford
After some time, the cab pushes the frame down and makes the nose point skyward. I’d say by the time mine gets that far, I hope to be ready or close to ready to start with tubing.

Excellent idea on the tapering! Singlehandedly my favorite reason for forums. Second opinions and different points of view really come in handy.
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