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Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Ford F834

Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

Gary and I have been having an e-mail discussion about Saginaw pump options for my IDI. For most engines the best solution is to find the Econoline van counterpart in the junkyard and grab the bracket and pump. Unfortunately, when the 7.3 IDI went to a serpentine drive belt system in 1992.5, even the vans had C2 Ford pumps. The bracket I want does not exist. So if I want to run a Saginaw pump I have basically three options:

-Back convert my 1994 7.3 IDIT to V belts (and source a 83-91 diesel van pump bracket)

-Source an A1 Cardone 20-6244 Saginaw pump that bolts straight into a C2 bracket (these have been discontinued for 10 years or so, and your chances of finding one are about like winning the lottery).

-Modify the IDI bracket and make a different Saginaw pump fit it. This is what Gary and I have been discussing.

I believe the best starting point for this is the $30 PSC mount adapter.
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/ford-5-0-saginaw-pump-adapter-bracket.html

This horseshoe shaped piece is similar to what made the Cardone 20-6244 pump a direct bolt-in. The problem is the Cardone had other tricks up its sleeve to make it a direct swap. The adapter piece was thick, which set the filler neck back and gave it clearance for serpentine brackets. The pump shaft therefore had to be longer. One cannot just buy the adapter, slap it on a similar Saginaw pump and expect it to work like the Cardone.

PSC says the adapter is only for use with one of its remote reservoir systems, but they are priced at $435-$520 which I cannot stomach. Gary brought up that Astro vans used remote reservoir systems that I might be able score in the bone yard. However, I found an article where a guy used an 80-96 Ford van pump (pump only/remote reservoir can from PSC) and an Astro van reservoir. At low speed it was fine, but out on the road and it made noise. The reservoir looks plenty large to me, but he said the problem was because the reservoir was not big enough. He ended up replacing it with a quite expensive reservoir from PSC. This makes me a little leery of cobbling together a remote reservoir:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/index.php?threads/saginaw-power-steering-pump-conversion-journey.417083/

At this point in my research I started looking at the differences in the Ford brackets themselves. I am starting to think that cutting away part of the bracket to accommodate the Saginaw reservoir might not be the end of the world. It is basically what Ford did, except they cast it that way instead of using a saw.

Gary, I know my photo is a poor angle but look at the Saginaw bracket I just sent you compared to its C2 version:

Now take a look at the 7.3 IDI bracket. It has a wall all the way around the steering pump. It seems to me that notching it out for a “necked” style Saginaw wouldn't weaken it all that much:

Possible pump- Cardone 20-6999

This need is still a ways off, but the more of these sticky details I work out in advance the better.

SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

One thing I saw mentioned in the old Saginaw swap threads was that Cardone's pump had a different shaft diameter (as well as length) to allow it to use the Ford pulley.

I don't know this from personal experience, and maybe it only applies to V-belts, but it is something to be aware of.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

Jonathan - The info about the Saginaw's shaft or nose being 5/8" longer than a C2 is significant here. I'm guessing that the Cardone 20-6244 had about that much thickness to the adapter on the shortest hole. For the others as we've discussed this, that does two things. First, it puts the pulley in the proper alignment, which others have done with all sorts of spacers. Second, it gets the pump back where the interference between the body and the bracket are less.

So my thinking now is that we could take a 5/8" chunk of steel and make a bracket. It would probably be shaped much like the PSC adapter, and it would have tapped holes in the front that match the C2's pattern to bolt it into the standard Ford bracket. And it would have countersunk holes that allow it to be bolted to the Saginaw pump. But, the Sag's front isn't even so we'll still have to have some spacers.

As for cutting on the IDI's bracket, the 460 Sag bracket is supposed to get here on Friday, and again thank you, so I'll look it over and post pics of it as opposed to the 460 C2 bracket that Jim got me - thanks again, Jim. That will let us compare to your IDI bracket. But at first blush it doesn't look like there's a problem with cutting down the lip or wall.

Jim - Thanks, that's something to watch out for.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk

Jim, thank you for that information. I had not read about the shaft diameter problem. That is good to know. I might have to remove slightly more of the bracket, but I'm thinking maybe getting the pump and pulley from a serpentine Ford van with the ham can reservoir may be the way to go...

I am confused about the shaft length however... the article where the guy made his own adapter sandwich stated that the pump had to be spaced back 5/8" to put the pulley in the right place, but the 6244 Cardone has a lot more shaft sticking out past the bracket than the similar looking 6999 pump with no bracket. In the thread with the Astro van remote reservoir, the guy used the PSC horseshoe and said the shaft wasn't long enough. (It was 80-96 Ford van pump). He said the shaft went a little more than half way through. So which is it? Too long or too short? The F550 article gives no specific info, but Tom Lee's adapter looks a little thicker than the PSC horseshoe and there is no mention of shimming it. Lee knows his pumps and exactly which model to use. I know he would not have accepted a pulley being not all the way seated.

My thinking is that I can get the adapter for $30, and a junkyard pump with the pulley for $28+$5 core. If it does not work I can even return it for credit. $63 invested is an amount I can live with. I need to buy the pulley tool, but that is something I should have anyway.

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

That would be an easy solution.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

From what I have seen, Saginaw pumps were made for specific applications, many on non-GM vehicles, I will have to dig out one of my K-car pumps and measure it for shaft length etc.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

I have to agree with Bill.
Saginaw produced dozens of variants for multiple manufacturers, not just GM.

So: canned ham, necked, single or dual return, different clocking for different mounts/engines.
That's just the reservoir...

I'm not sure of the difference between Ford serpentine and V-belt pulleys.
Bore size, offset, whatever.

Cardone may have been playing mix & match with existing Saginaw shafts.
But obviously it has to end up in plane with the crank pulley, and be a tight fit in the pulley.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

This is a bit off the topic perhaps, but I was looking around for a good puller and installer tool, and wondered if anyone had any recommendations or advice. I am looking at the "No-slip" Lisle 39000 which has a unique head that locks together with a threaded handle. It's a little less than $50. Seems good but I'm open to other input:

https://youtu.be/xcmh-5JNkUs

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

I have the OTC 4530: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000XSI96G/ref=oh_aui_i_sh_in_o1_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Seems to work well.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

I have what looks like the exact same kit from Northern Tool.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

I got my 460 Saginaw power steering pump & bracket today - THANK YOU, JONATHAN!

So I used the pulley remover and unbolted the pump to compare the brackets. I took a number of measurements:

Shaft diameter: C2=.688" and Saginaw=.750"

Shaft protrusion: C2=2.406" & Sag=2.813" Measurements from mounting lugs to end of shaft,
but on the Sag it was from the two most-forward lugs

Thickness of Bracket @ bolt holes: C2=.407" while the Sag's bracket is .450" on the two front lugs

Plane of mounting spots on the pumps: All 3 of the C2's mounting spots are in the same plane,
but one of the Saginaw's mountings spots is .357" to the rear of the other two.

Pulley Depth: From the back of the pulley to the front the C2 is 1.495" and the Saginaw is 1.730.
Said another way, the Saginaw pulley is .235" deeper than the C2 pulley.

One thing I didn't measure and should have is the plane of the mounting points vs the front of the block.

Here's the C2 bracket:

Here's the Saginaw bracket:

And, there are differences in the pulleys themselves. Here's a side view:

Here's another view:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

You are very welcome for the bracket Gary! I'm glad I found one and could help out.

I really appreciate the measurements and comparisons, this gives me a good idea of what to look at as far as spacing for the Saginaw. If you can figure out if there is any difference in the block to pump mounting face distance that would be helpful.

If I assume that the block distances are equal, then my math says if you went to mount the Saginaw in the C2 bracket it would have to be spaced aft by 0.222". PSC does not give a thickness soecification on the horseshoe bracket but I bet it is close to that. I think one could "get there" by shimming further aft with washers or moving the pulley forward by not seating it all the way on... ~IF the block to mounting face distance is the same...

Anyway, thanks for the good information for me... I am definitely going to need a pump and the corresponding pulley. Time to get a puller and head to the junkyard to look for some serpentine Ford vans!

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Gary, was the package damaged in shipment? It kind of looks like the edge of the reservoir canister is bent and the pointed "ear" on the bracket seems like it may have been hit?

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

Yes, on both of those, but no biggee. I'm thinking the reservoir can easily be bent back - if I don't find a dual return one.

And the point is broken off. But surely that's not critical. What does it do? If needed it can be tack-welded back on.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Ford F834

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

Wow. I am very sorry about the damage Gary. That was a heavy part and I should have surrounded it with more packaging and put it in a larger box. That is a shame. However, I have no idea what that pointed ear is for, and I doubt it will be missed. Perhaps I should look at the Chevy section to see if I can find you a hydroboost reservoir?

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

Don't worry about it - I'm not. But, if you will watch for a dual-return reservoir I'd appreciate it. I'm sure I can modify this one as shown in that link, but I'm not sure I want to do that.

And, I'm not in a hurry. This year is Dad's truck and thinking through what to do for Big Blue. His turn is next year.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

One thing to note, Gary, Is that the mount (boss?) that bolts to the front of the DS cylinder head is different for a C2 or Saginaw pump... at least with v-belt pumps.

I'd imagine the waterpump mounting points did not change depth, but the cylinder head bracket is 1/2" or more taller iirc.
I took side by side pictures back in '12 when i got mine from Bill's junkyard guy Donnie Meddlin(?)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

Jim - That's one of the questions. I know the bolts stayed the same, but lots of dimensions could have changed.

My plan is to run both of these parts through the parts washer to get them presentable, and then clamp them to the table on the mill just as they would bolt to the cylinder heads. Then I can measure from the table to the mounting face of the bracket and know that it is a good measurement.

Sound like a reasonable plan?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

I was suggesting you work from the part that bolts to the water pump and determine the height difference in the boss bolted to the head.

Pretty sure I pictured the two side by side on FTE back then.

Iirc the threaded holes on EFI heads are larger than carbureted ones. (3/8-16 V 5/16-18??)

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Administrator

But, even if there is no height difference in the part that bolts to the head, we don't know that there aren't other differences. Like a slight difference in an angle or other dimension that makes the mounting point for the power steering pump different. Right?

So, if we assume that the head is a good reference point, then why not measure from the head mounting point to the power steering pump mounting point?

I know you have something in mind, but I'm missing it. Sorry!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

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Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Shaft diameter: C2=.688" and Saginaw=.750"

Shaft protrusion: C2=2.406" & Sag=2.813" Measurements from mounting lugs to end of shaft, but on the Sag it was from the two most-forward lugs

Thickness of Bracket @ bolt holes: C2=.407" while the Sag's bracket is .450" on the two front lugs

Plane of mounting spots on the pumps: All 3 of the C2's mounting spots are in the same plane, but one of the Saginaw's mountings spots is .357" to the rear of the other two.

Pulley Depth: From the back of the pulley to the front the C2 is 1.495" and the Saginaw is 1.730. Said another way, the Saginaw pulley is .235" deeper than the C2 pulley.

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Re: Saginaw for a serpentine IDI: brainstorming

Shaft protrusion: C2=2.406" & Sag=2.813" Measurements from mounting lugs to end of shaft,
but on the Sag it was from the two most-forward lugs

Plane of mounting spots on the pumps: All 3 of the C2's mounting spots are in the same plane,
but one of the Saginaw's mountings spots is .357" to the rear of the other two.

Pulley Depth: From the back of the pulley to the front the C2 is 1.495" and the Saginaw is 1.730.
Said another way, the Saginaw pulley is .235" deeper than the C2 pulley.