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Recommendations for EFI fuel system

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Littlebeefy

Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Hi y'all,

I'm still in the planning stages for my 460 swap and need to work out a plan for the fuel system. I'm currently running a carbed 351w with the original fuel system (I think) and a 25 gallon tank. I'm putting an Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 system on my 460 and the fuel requirements per the instructions are as follows:

The Pro-Flo 4 EFI system requires a high pressure fuel system providing 43-45 or 58-60 psi of fuel pressure with a minimum flow rating of 57 GPH (215 liter/hr).

Edelbrock also makes a fuel pressure regulator specifically for the Pro-Flo, so I have that resolved, but everything upstream of the pressure regulator is up in the air.

Edelbrock makes a couple of fuel pump options: https://www.edelbrock.com/shop/fuel-injection/fuel-system-kits.html

The simplest way seems to be to keep the entire stock system in place and use the Edelbrock fuel sump pump.

Another alternative is to replace the fuel tank with a later version that has the larger opening and use a later in-tank pump, but I'm not sure that would keep up with the fuel requirements of the EFI. I wouldn't mind upgrading to a 33 gallon tank, my 25 gallon tank probably has residue in it older than the current Billboard Charts topper, and my skid plate is bent so new parts wouldn't hurt.

Another option would be to piece a kit together. I don't have any idea what the best components would be in that case.

I'd be curious to hear from others on their experience, advice and recommendations.

Thanks!
Chad

LittleBeefy aka Chad

“Dot Doitall”: 1984 Bronco XLT
460 (C8VE), Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4, ZF5, NP205, D44HP solid axle, 4.56
urban assault vehicle

"Bebe": 2022 Bronco Badlands 2dr
2.7l, Sasquatch, Iconic Silver, Black Marine-grade interior, hard-top

"Celeste": 1979 Porsche 928
4.5l K-jet, 5-sp, S4/GTS brakes, LSD, Pasha interior

Gary Lewis

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

Chad - Does the Eddy use a return? It looks like it from what I saw on that link, but I'm not sure.

The reason I ask is that you should consider going with a later style that has a built-in return. And if your tank has the small opening then you'll need a later tank.

So then you'll need to decide if you want the short-lived Bullnose ones or the later "fuel delivery module" style. The parts for the Bullnose ones are getting harder to find, but the FDM's were used for many more years, and more recently, so are available.

I'm using 90's tanks & FDM's, which you could do as well. You might or might not need the fuel pressure regulator, but you will need a way to change the fuel level sender to work with the Bullnose gauge, and a Meter Match will do that.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Littlebeefy

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Hi Gary,
Yes, it would require a return unless I used the sump pump (and then it may still require a return depending on who you believe). My first instinct was to switch over to the '90s fuel system as a whole. I just wasn't sure if the stock-style fuel pump met the necessary minimum flow and pressure requirements. Do you know what the stock spec is for those years?

If that isn't up to the task, does anyone know of a Holley or hi-performance aftermarket pump that will work in a 90s sender unit (or an 80s sender unit for that matter)?

Gary Lewis

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

I don't know the spec's, but I think Bill does. However the FDM's should have the volume needed because they handle the EFI engines just fine.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Littlebeefy

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

I'm doubting that the stock EFI system had as high of a GPH demand as the Edelbrock unit (57 GPH). For the aftermarket stock-replacement units that I'm finding on Rockauto, where specs are provided they are showing a sub-50 max flow rate. I did find one that has an advertised max GPH of 57.5: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7550060&cc=1106086&jsn=1299

So, hypothetically speaking, if I switch to a 90s tank setup, is there a Holley or other hi-performance fuel pump that will "bolt in" to the stock fittings?

Gary Lewis

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

I can see that the pressures could vary between EFI systems, but the engine will use the same amount of fuel regardless of the type of EFI installed, assuming that the same AFR is maintained. So the GPH requirements will be the same.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Littlebeefy

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

You caught me talking out of school, Gary. I really don't know. It make benefit you to know that I'm making some slight performance modifications to the 460 before installation (the word "slight" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there). I'm using an RV style cam, but I expect to achieve a significant power improvement.

So I'm basing my assumption on Newtonian physics. Sure, driving down the highway at a fixed speed at 2500 RPM and all other things being equal, both EFI systems would have the same AFR rate because the work being done (and therefore the energy exhausted in the process) would be identical.

The difference is at the high-performance margin. If one engine produces higher torque, then it's maximum fuel flow demand must be higher at torque levels in excess of the other engines max performance; the maximum torque produced at the crank is higher and doing more work at it's max performance versus the lower torque engine and that difference in energy has to come from somewhere.

That is my assumption just based on what I know from Physics. So it would seem like I would need a higher max GPH pump for the higher performance engine, right? Hence the 57 GPH flow rate requirement for the eddy efi?

Gary Lewis

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

Ahhh! That makes sense that even my 50-year old physics degree can get behind.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Littlebeefy

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Check this out. This company makes a 255LPH unit that is identical to the 92-96 unit:

https://www.highflowfuel.com/ag-1322007.1322032.1325965.1323249.1322152-automotive-1996-ford-bronco-5-8l.html

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

In reply to this post by Littlebeefy

I think I pointed out in another thread that the stock in-tank pumps provide a minimum of a gallon a minute (spec, 1Qt in 15 seconds)
So 60 gallons an hour seems enough???

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

255 liters is 67 gallons, so that's not much over the original fuel pump specs. Can you really use more than 60 gallons/hour?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Littlebeefy

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

The requirement for the Pro-Flo is 57 GPH, so 60 would be sufficient.

@Jim - I appreciate you weighing in here. Where were you able to get the spec flow rate on the OEM pump? I could not find the post you are referencing (sorry but you are a prolific poster).

In trying to weigh out all possible solutions, I am continuing to research this on various forums. The common solution that I am finding is referred to as "pump on a stick". Here's an example of that application: https://www.fullsizebronco.com/threads/fuel-pump-upgrade-125lph-255lph.109519/

(it is worth noting that in the above post, the author states that the stock fuel pump is 125 LPH)

I also saw this post from @Rusty_S85 where he suggested a similar solution for his Holley TBI: http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/Fuel-Injection-upgrade-td55603.html

It seems like the most common concern around the various solutions is how they deal with fuel starvation under heavy acceleration. If I understand correctly, the last versions of the pump came encased to keep fuel nearby during acceleration events. Is that correct? And companies like Holley offer a "mat" the feeds the pump that does effectively the same thing? Other than these two solutions for preventing starvation, is there another option? What is most effective?

Any and all feedback is appreciated. I don't know what I don't know.

85lebaront2

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

Easiest solution would be to upgrade to a later tank, however, fuel starvation under heavy acceleration I have not run into, and that is with the stock 1990 front tank and pump. Long uphill grades under load and low fuel level in the front tank can run into that as the pump assembly sits near the center of a long (19 gal) tank. There really isn't a good fix for that. Rear tank is less affected by this as it is roughly square with the pump in the middle.

Baffles will help to an extent, particularly in sloshing, but a long uphill run it will still be an issue. A fuel cell, like a race car helps, but needs pickups positioned to be submerged in fuel under any condition.

Some vehicles us a "tub" the pump sits in and the return fuel is used as a "jet" to pickup fuel to fill the tub and the pump draws from the tub. As for pressure and volume, the Chrysler Turbo engine pumps run 55 psi static rising with the boost to, in my case 70 psi and there is a Walbro 255 gph (I think) pump used on them for extreme systems (20 + psi boost).

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Littlebeefy

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

So I've done significantly more research across the web, and there are nearly an infinite number of ways to skin this cat. In my case, with an 84 and no return as well as the smaller fuel tank, there simply isn't any reason to try to reuse any of what I've got.

If I start with the assumption that I have to buy a new hanger, it just seems like it makes more sense to buy the 85-86 unit since it has a return and it has a float that doesn't require a $100 gauge converter to work and it's significantly cheaper than the 90s unit. Most importantly, it seems like I can easily adapt it for a Walbro 255 with a Hydramat and do a custom pump on a stick solution. See what I mean:

So Gary et al, I'm wondering, even though you suggested the 90s units, is there a fundamental reason that I can't use the 85-86 to build a high pressure pump on a stick with a return? I know I'd have to run some submersible tubing since it's expecting a side outlet pump and I'd need to extend the return to the bottom of the tank, but is there anything stopping me from doing it that way?

Gary Lewis

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

Chad - I don't see any reason you can't do it that way.

My reason for going with the later FDM's was because I'm going with 90's EFI later and wanted a "stock" system to make it easier for my offspring to support. But you aren't worried about that, so it should work fine for you.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

In reply to this post by Littlebeefy

That seems a great solution Chad!

The sender and fuel lines are plug 'n play, and you can easily adapt the Walbro pump + Hydramat to keep the pump from starving.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Littlebeefy

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

So here is my solution realized. I took the 85-86 hanger that JBG sells and cut off the pick-up tube just above the bend. That was the only modification I had to make to the hanger and I imagine you could do the same with any unit regardless of where you got it or who made it.

The biggest problem I had was staying within the 2" limitation of the hole cut for the hanger. I am using an Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump with an offset outlet and inlet and a 39mm body. at 2 I'm dealing with 50.8mm to work with total, so that leaves only 11.8mm to work with along side the pump.

2 important "discoveries" I found in actually constructing and fitting: 1) a standard 1.75" hose clamp fitting will usually have a "worm screw and socket" that sticks out further than 11.8mm, and 2) the lowest part of the pump has to be high enough up that the sender float can be completely inserted in the hole before the pump goes in.

To get around the worm screw problem, I found SS zip ties. These things are GAME CHANGERS. Y'all may know about these already, but to me it was a fabulous discovery. They are easy to snug on and they only stick out a few millimeters. I used the zip ties to hold on 2 M3 SS threaded rods which I clamped on to the hanger. By keeping the rods just about straight, the pump inlet will be moved slightly forward in the tank by a couple of inches. In my case that's preferable since I'm using a 15x3 Hydramat with an offset connector so it should sit right in the middle.

The length of the pump is such that the hose between the pump and the hanger only has to be about 1.5-1.75 inches long and can be completely straight. Also, the M3 rods are sturdy enough, but if you put a hose clamp around the rods and hose, you can easily bend the rods to effectively make the unit "shorter" and move the inlet a little more towards the center.

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

Those stainless clamps are handy, and we used to use them to hold heat shields on dirt bike pipes.

Safety wire (and pliers) would do the same thing.
I have a pound of three sizes .020, .032, .040" in my box.

Safety wire pliers used to be a big expense (my Blue Point were over $100 40 years ago)
But I saw a bigger pair in Horrid Fate last week.
Anyone that has to pass tech or has "mission critical" fasteners should own some (and practice with them)
I know a few here (like Clay, the new owner of Gary's Rusty, and John 'Machspeed)' come from military avation backgrounds...

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

Gary Lewis

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

In reply to this post by Littlebeefy

Well done! I like those SS zip ties. But I've never found them. Where did you find them?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

ArdWrknTrk

Re: Recommendations for EFI fuel system

Administrator

They are Prime

https://www.amazon.com/100pcs-Stainless-Coated-Locking-11-8inch/dp/B07XXNJJ6R/ref=asc_df_B07XXNJJ6R/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385184478202&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9755357486575574977&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003439&hvtargid=pla-829429952829&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=77282054623&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385184478202&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9755357486575574977&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003439&hvtargid=pla-829429952829

Like I said, used for header wrap and heat shields.

Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.

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