Questions regarding duraspark conversion

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Questions regarding duraspark conversion

eternaltruck

   I have several question regarding the Duraspark 2 conversion. My F150 is a 1986 shortbed with the 4.9, and the carter feedback carb. It was mentioned that if I did the conversion, that the computer, and all the wiring would go, but by that, does that mean that every wire that connects to the ecm gets removed? Also, if my current understanding is true, what would happen to parts like this one  ? I'm assuming that it would get swapped with a older identical part before the feedback carb. lastly, what are the best parts to use for this conversion, specifically what year carter carb works the best, and how do I know if I have the correct distributor? do they still sell them new?

 
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

eternaltruck



    Here's some additional pictures of the engine bay

   
   
   
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

eternaltruck
In reply to this post by eternaltruck
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In my experience, which isn't vast, all of the wires to/from the ECM can be removed.  Ford seems to have made that wiring completely standalone.  For instance, there was a temp sender for the gauges and one for the ECM.  Etc.  But, if it was me I'd trace the wires from the ECM as best I can and make sure that what I'm telling you is correct.

One way to trace the wires is to go to the page on the 1986 EVTM and look at each wire to the ECM and then find that wire under the hood.  Make sure what it hooks to, and if you have questions come back here and ask them.

Speaking of extra temp senders, I think that's what you have in the first pic.  Pull the convolute back and see what wire colors you have.  I'll bet they are bk/white and light green/yellow, which are the temp sender wires to the ECM.  If so, they can be taken out, and you can either leave the sender or pull it and plug the opening.

The carb you want is the one David/1986F150Six has in his truck.  I think it is from a 1970 truck, but I'll have to find his info and get back with you.

As for the distributor, ideally you'd get one to match the carb, but that's not the easiest thing to do.  Let me do some looking tomorrow to see what I can come up with on that, unless someone else beats me to the answer.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Ford F834
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In reply to this post by eternaltruck
Since David is not usually online on the weekends... I will relay what he told me via email.

On the advice of the straight six guru Frenchtown Flyer he bought a Carter YF carburetor for a 1970 F350. That age and GVWR meant that it was calibrated for a NON- EGR application. If you have deleted your smog pump this is the carb to order.

Regarding the Duraspark II conversion itself, most of the write ups are for upgrading an older points style ignition to electronic ignition... (not retro converting a feedback system), but the wiring is going to be the same. You may find this link helpful. (Note, it says V8 engines, but everything is the same for a I6 except the distributor):

http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/jonknapek/fordv8/duraspark.html

As you can see here the system is pretty well self contained:


SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

PetesPonies
Here is exactly how I would do the ignition upgrade. Buy a rebuilt Duraspark distributor from any parts supplier. They are very affordable. You can remove all your ECM wiring, not needed. I would then use a GM HEI module to work with the Duraspark distributor. Frankly, it does a better job than the Duraspark box. It is very easy to wire and all you need to do is fab an aluminum mount for the module. I have done this conversion before. The wiring schematic is easy to find online, but I can help if you decide to go this way. It can be very stealth. I have seen people hide the HEI in a gutted Duraspark box  :)  I hid mine under some plastic that was standard in the engine compartment to hide the stock relays. If this seems interesting to you . I can provide more help.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Pete - It is interesting that you suggest that.  Tim Meyer is selling exactly that - a distributor with the HEI module in it: Track Boss Ready To Run (RTR) Distributor.  

I actually had SN#1 of that distributor.  It was on my engine when Tim ran it on the dyno, and it performed perfectly.  But, since I'm going with Ford's EEC-V EFI system the timing will be controlled by the ECM.  So when Tim was out of those distributors I sold mine to a guy that needed one and it is in service somewhere.

Unfortunately, at this time Tim doesn't seem to have one for the 300 six, but perhaps we could persuade him to make it?  And, dial in the advance curve for a non-EGR engine?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Ford F834
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Gary/Pete, what exactly is the advantage of HEI?
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

PetesPonies
It just does a better job mainly, I believe, because it is a full voltage device. The Duraspark uses resistance like points do to cut voltage to 8-9V. If you start with more voltage, you'll end up with more voltage. Ive had the Ford boxes die on me, the HEI module is maybe more reliable, but only $20 anywhere. But running full voltage is a benefit. here's a stealth application.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
There are advantages to the HEI module, but there are also disadvantages.  One is the lack of ignition retard when cranking.  Not all DS-II modules have that feature - it was designed in by Ford, but not all manufacturers have included it.  In fact, I have two blue-grommet modules on Big Blue and only one of them has it, and the engine struggles to crank when it is the one in service, but cranks easily when the other is being used.

Another disadvantage is because the HEI module pulls more current than the DS-II module does, so it needs to have new wiring run instead of using the small factory wiring.  In fact, it really should have at least a #12 wire, and my reading says that GM used #10 wire to it from the factory.  And that will require a relay as the wiring to the ignition switch on a Ford isn't nearly that large.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Ford F834
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So I’m hearing that it may possibly provide better reliability... but with harder starting and require upgraded wiring and a relay to be done correctly... does not seem terribly convincing if it does not provide any tangible benefit to the ignition efficiency or tuning 🤷‍♂️
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Since what the ignition module is doing is to take the negative side of the coil to ground and then letting it go to cause the spark, unless you change out the positive wiring to the coil and/or the coil itself it isn't likely that you'll get better spark.

Let's go back to the schematic you shared.  As long as the same coil and ballast resistor is used you'll get essentially the same spark regardless of what module you use to trigger it.  But, if the HEI module can handle more current w/o overheating as the DS-II module does, then you could change out the coil and ballast to get a stronger spark.  However, I don't know how much current an HEI module can take, so don't know what is possible.




Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

eternaltruck
In reply to this post by eternaltruck

   

      Gents,

           Thank you for all the insight provided! it means the world to me! It's really exciting to complete the conversion because it will take a lot of wires out of the engine bay, and I really like that! When I first purchased the truck, I got a headache every time I popped the hood and saw that big mess of wires. I've only learned recently that all those wires are there because of the feedback carb,  and to have those wires gone would truly make the engine bay much more appealing to the eye(at least in my mind). I've been doing a lot of work on old red recently. She has a thousand mile trip ahead of her, and I've recently been working double time to get her where she needs to be. I have until early February to get her good to go, and good to go is just replacing the breaks, coil springs, tie rods, wind shield seal, and the conversion, But I have the time for more than just that, so I've been working as efficiently as possible to maximize the time I have left where I currently live. I'm going to go to my local salvage yard to pick up a carter non feedback to rebuild this weekend. I'm still waiting for more feedback(pun intended) for the best option to purchase. I'm hoping I'll have my bearings by the end of his week, but if not, I have work that will keep me busy.
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I understand the excitement on the cleanup.  On the '82 I had I did the research and learned that all of the wires associated with the computer could be removed and did so, making a huge difference under the hood.  But, again, you need to confirm that to be the case with yours.  I'm pretty sure it is, but just check to make sure.

The way I wound up removing things was by cutting the wiring near the computer in the cab, with the battery disconnected, and then gently pulling those wires, a few at a time, into the engine compartment.  Then I unwrapped whatever bundles had to be unwrapped to get those wires exposed - all the way to whatever sending unit or actuator they went to.  Then I removed the actuator or sending unit, plugged any holes, and put the stuff in a tote.  When I was done I had a large tote full.

On the ignition system, the easiest way in my opinion is to go with a DS-II setup.  You'll need to find a DS-II wiring harness off a truck in the salvage, or buy one off the internet.  And, while I'm on that, all the DS-II harnesses are electrically the same, regardless of engine.  However, each engine family has the sending units and distributor in different places, so the wires to them are different lengths.  So, it would be best to find one for your engine, but if not you can lengthen or shorten the wires as needed.  And, if you find a truck with the DS-II distributor and module at the same time, you'll have a "kit" and it'll go right together.

On the distributor, there were surely minor differences in the advance curve for different setups, like gear ratio, automatic vs manual transmission, etc.  But the major difference is whether or not the truck had EGR.  EGR requires a lot more advance due to the slow burn speed of the air/fuel mix with the inert gas mixed in, so if you are going to retain the EGR setup you should find a dizzy for a truck with EGR.  But if you are going to delete or block off the EGR then you want a dizzy from a truck w/o EGR so you get an advance curve that will be close to what you need.

On the other hand, there are two HEI approaches.  One is as Pete suggested - going with an HEI module either in a Ford or Ford-looking distributor or mounted externally - all of which will then use the stock coil.  The other is to go with a one-wire distributor, which has both the HEI module as well as the coil mounted inside the distributor.  The tip-off is a GM looking distributor, meaning a much larger cap.  But, the wiring is easier - you run a large wire from the battery through a fuse to a relay, and pull the relay in with the ignition switch, probably with the wire that would have gone to the DS-II module for power.  There's no need to find the DS-II harness, and no need for the DS-II module.  And, in this approach you can probably specify the advance curve you want - with or without EGR.

We can help you with whatever approach you chose to take, but I just wanted you to be aware of the options.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

FuzzFace2
In reply to this post by eternaltruck
What ever you get the carb from you can get the dist. from also.
If lucky it will be a DSII system.

Even if it has points you can do a Pertronix kit to it and then you don't need to deal with the DSII box & wiring harness that is hard to find.

The only thing if it is a points dist. check for shaft play side to side up top. With points pushing on the shaft they can get some wear and end up with side ways play.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

PetesPonies
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Ford F834
I didn't change any wiring to use my HEI module. I also didn't have any starting issues.  Here it is in my '84 Bronco I used to own.    
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL731/2966983/22064731/364979935.jpg

Then covered with factory cover. This was where the relays were mounted originally.

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL731/2966983/22064731/364979876.jpg


It always started very easily and ran great. This had a feedback system to start with.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I think the retard feature covers a bunch of initial advance on the timing.  So if you run something close to stock timing then it probably isn't required.  But, I'm running something like 14 degrees BTDC on Big Blue, and that causes it to kick back when trying to start w/o the retard feature.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

1986F150Six
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Regarding the resistance to initial starting, as mentioned by Jonathan and Gary, in my opinion, this is more for V8s than the six cylinder, especially if stock [~8.0 CR]. The static timing on my engine is 16 degrees BTDC and there is no problem with starting [no dragging or kick-back].
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

1986F150Six
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1986F150Six wrote
Regarding the resistance to initial starting, as mentioned by Jonathan and Gary, in my opinion, this is more for V8s than the six cylinder, especially if stock [~8.0 CR]. The static timing on my engine is 16 degrees BTDC and there is no problem with starting [no dragging or kick-back].
Some have suggested installing a push button switch which disables the ignition while depressed. One can press the button [left hand?] while turning the ignition key to start. The engine will spin [momentum] and the disable button can be released and the engine will fire away!
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Re: Questions regarding duraspark conversion

1986F150Six
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In reply to this post by Ford F834
<quote author="Ford F834">
On the advice of the straight six guru Frenchtown Flyer he bought a Carter YF carburetor for a 1970 F350. That age and GVWR meant that it was calibrated for a NON- EGR application. If you have deleted your smog pump this is the carb to order.
/quote>

Carter YF 4901 S
12