Nothing Special's Moab trip, 2019

Here's a video that you DON'T want to show Janey!  It's not exactly what I'm talking about.  In this video one front tire climbed the edge rather than dropping off a ledge.  But the physics is the same.  And no, I don't know these people at all, it's just a YouTube video I'd seen before and was able to find quickly.

Roll over on Heart Attack Hill

I don't like to criticize people on-line, but one value of having videos like this available is to learn from other's mistakes.  I haven't watched this recently, but my recollection is that the spotter gave less-than-helpful advice.  And the driver certainly did the wrong thing by not staying in the track.  But probably the primary problem was that they were on a hill that was simply too difficult and dangerous for them.  Could they have done it well?  Yes.  But they probably should have been gaining experience on easier trails.

Still, we can learn from them.  On steep hills, particularly with a short wheelbase vehicle like that TJ Wrangler, be careful to keep it level.  Make sure the spotter and driver have clear communication.  Make sure the spotter is in a position where he can be seen (but won't be hit!).

By the way, when you don't have a spotter, make sure you know your line (and will be able to see it to stay on it) before you are committed.  Slight spoiler here, on day 4 I was going down a ledge where there were some rocks below the ledge to make it into smaller steps, but those rocks weren't along the entire ledge.  Dropping off the ledge where one tire landed on a step but the other didn't would be more exciting!  But the ledge was well down the hill, I'd need to turn as I approached it, and I wouldn't be able to see the steps from the driver's seat as I approached.  So I put a small rock on the ledge to mark my line.  That way as I got to it I knew where I wanted to be.  Lesley complains sometimes that some of the video she shoots of me in the Bronco ends up being too boring, but that's where some of the fun is, figuring out how and where to go to make a difficult section of trail be easy and safe.  (Other fun is in trying to make it up an impossible section of trail, with or without damage.  But that gets into the "if you have to ask you shouldn't" category.  I don't do that when it's just me and Lesley with no support vehicles or other people to help.)

Ok, I'll watch that - later.  Right now the love of my life is sitting beside me on the porch, where we've just turned on the heated floor as we are wrapped in quilts.  Anyway, when the coast is clear I'll watch it.  

And I understand about end-over-end not being correct.  I get the picture, yes we see.  (Sorry, Shangri-Las.)

This spotting thing is all new to me.  I've read enough that I understand what it is all about.  But Janey is not going to be a good spotter as she doesn't understand the physics involved.  Yes, she can tell me when I get to a pre-determined spot or if I don't have the tire where I said I want it, so that'll be a big help.  But if my son and I are to go to Moab it looks like we'll have to have gotten some experience somewhere.  And that's a problem given his distance from me and his lack of time.

Suggestions?

I don't have time for much of a response right now, but not sure when I will, so quickly...

I wouldn't expect Janey to spot.  It's actually harder to spot than drive off-road, so the spotter really needs to be able to drive it.  So unless you are going with someone with more experience who can spot for you, you just need to stay within your limits as you learn.

Suggestions on how to do that?  Mostly don't be afraid to turn around, and never go over something that you aren't confident you can come back over (otherwise turning around isn't an option!).  And not all trails in Moab are all that hard.  You don't need to be an expert to drive there.  But starting in Ouray is a good idea too, I know there are a lot of fun, easier trails there.

Still not much time available...

I started 'wheeling in 1987, but over those 32 years I probably haven't done more than about 40 trips.  So while I'm not a rookie, I'm sure no expert either.  There have been a (very) few trips where I've been able to go with more experienced people, but mostly I'm self-taught.

YouTube is a great resource now that wasn't available when I started.  Especially watching videos of the trail(s) you are planning of taking, but really anything.  Watch what they do, what works, what doesn't.  For those of us that have a pretty good grasp of physics there are often things (like not dropping one front tire off a ledge first) that maybe wouldn't be thought of at first, but are pretty obvious once you see it.

A huge thing (like I mentioned above) is don't go anywhere you can't get back from.  Duh, but it's not always as obvious when you're in the heat of it (particularly if you are a 23 year old male like I was when I started!).  Fortunately many trails start out uphill and it's usually harder to go up than down.  So if you can get up it you can probably get back down if you need to.  The exception is ledges like we've been talking about.  But still, the ledges that can mess you up going down usually aren't a piece of cake to go up either.  Just be looking at whether you'll be able to get a line to go straight enough down any ledges before you go up them.

And pick your trails with your (lack of) experience in mind.  While there's no shame in getting turned back (Poison Spider just did it to me), it's no fun to start a bunch of trails and get nowhere either.  All of the trails in Ouray are doable by a novice who's going to be careful (as we discussed before, Black Bear is scary and narrow enough to maybe not be a good choice for everyone, especially in a full size truck, and Poughkeepsie Gulch is probably best approached by beginners from above and might require a turn-around).  But seriously, the majority of Hell's Revenge and Fins & Things are not really difficult.  They can be spooky, and therefore aren't for everyone.  But I have no doubt that if you spent a week in Ouray, and then a week in Moab, by the end of that week (if not before) you'd be perfectly capable of driving either Hell's Revenge or Fins & Things, with or without your son to spot.  From my own experience it's more fun with my son, and just because I'm perfectly capable of doing it doesn't mean Lesley will enjoy it (that's a separate question).  But these aren't "expert" trails.


One other thing worth noting.  Many will say that you should never go 'wheeling without at least one other vehicle.  That's not bad advice, but it's advice I haven't had the luxury of following most of the time.  My path instead is to try to be pretty easy on my equipment (I haven't broke anything that's kept me from driving it home yet) and to not get in over my head (as described above).  It also gives more peace of mind when you're not completely isolated.  That's part of why I comment on what other vehicles we encounter on a trail.  Tons of other traffic is a drag, but it can be fun (and sometimes educational) to see other vehicles on obstacles.  And if you do break down or get hopelessly stuck it's nice to have the chance of someone coming by that can help you out.

Thursday - Arches National Park

When Lesley and I go on a fourwheeling vacation, with or without the kids, we try to mix in some touristy stuff.  Partly to give the others in my family a break from the fourwheeling, and partly because I like to do different things too.  As I noted earlier, we started this trip with about a day and a half at the Grand Canyon, but we wanted to experience more of the Moab area too.  Part of that was walking downtown almost every night, but we also wanted to spend a little more concentrated time being tourists too.

So Wednesday evening we drove back out to the Poison Spider trailhead where we had seen signs for a short hike to dinosaur tracks.  It was only a few minute walk to see this big slab of rock with fossilized footprints.


And take note of my T-shirt here!  I wore this the same day Lesley was wearing her "Get over it" shirt.  My son gave me this after Lesley got her Jeep Renegade.

Then we took our time driving back on highway 279 (which follows the Colorado River out of town).  We also stopped to look at the petroglyphs on the cliff walls along the highway.


On Thursday morning we got up early and drove to Arches National Park so we could hike to Delicate Arch by sunrise.  We didn't make it before sunrise, but as it turns out that wasn't a big deal.  At least at this time of year it really doesn't get hit by the sun until quite a while after sunrise.  Sunset might be a great time to get better lighting, but don't bother getting up early for it!  The hike was a little difficult if you were expecting a walk in the park.  It took about 2 hours to go about 3.5 miles round-trip (including plenty of time for pictures).  But definitely well worth doing rather than just seeing it from the viewing areas near the road.


There were some other cool things to see as well, including some slot canyons and Balancing Rock.




Overall a fun, relaxing day.  My only regret was that we didn't know we should be trying to hike to Landscape Arch.  It's supposed to be only about an easy 1.5 mile hike, and from the pictures it looks very impressive.  But we didn't realize that until we were back at the visitors center at the opposite end of the park.  If we had it to do over again I think we'd go to the far end first thing to see Landscape Arch before it got so crowded (it was impossible to find a place to park when we were there around noon) and then stop at the other places on the drive back out.

We have talked about on future trips to Moab (and there will be future trips!) that we might try to spend a day at a different park each time.  Some of them might be a little far to do quite the same as Arches, but there's lots of opportunity there!

Sorry about not hitting any trails today.  But there's still more to come...

Beautiful pics!  I love that area of the country, but we've spent most of our time out there on Powell and have only been through Moab once - and didn't stop.  Looks like we need to go back!  

Gary Lewis wrote

....  Looks like we need to go back!  

So do we!  Several times a day while we were there Lesley would say "I really like Moab!"  And I don't think we were out of Utah yet before she was saying "I miss Moab!"  She's talked about maybe going back there this spring.  No actual plans yet, but we will be back.  I just hope she'll let me go to a few other places too!

I think you have a keeper there.  A Jeeper keeper.  

No doubt!

Here's a picture of a picture of my girlfriend, standing beneath an arch, back around '82-'83.



No digital cameras back then.
(Cibachrome from a Kodachrome slide)

Utah sure is beautiful!

Beautiful pic!

That looks like it could be Delicate Arch (the one in my picture above, and the one on Utah's license plates).

Utah is kind of other-worldly.  It looks so different from anything you see most anywhere else.

Perhaps.
It was a great cross country road trip but so long ago I don't remember all the details.

I'm really glad you and your wife enjoyed it!  

Friday - Top of the World

What do I say about Top of the World?  What do I THINK about Top of the World?  It was one of the worst trails I've been on.  It was one of the BEST trails I've been on!  Seriously, I'm very glad we went on this trail, and we'll definitely do it again.  But to avoid some suspense, I would not recommend this trail for beginners (more on that later).

Top of the World starts with a 33 mile, hour long drive out highway 128.  Counting the return trip that's 2 hours of the day spent on pavement.  Still, this was actually a very enjoyable part of the day.  Highway 128 is a BEAUTIFUL drive!  Winding along through deep canyons alongside the Colorado River, with a whole bunch of small campgrounds along the river it was a really nice way to spend some time (and as I noted earlier, when I was younger those campgrounds would have been very appealing).  Even if you aren't going to do Top of the World you might want to drive 128.  Or if you're coming to Moab from the north you can take it down from I70 instead of highway 191.  Here's one picture from highway 128.


Eventually that drive ends and you are at the trailhead!  Sort of.  It's actually more of a gravel road for a while, but not a good gravel road.  It took half an hour to drive 5 miles up to the point the trail actually starts.  OK, a half hour isn't that long, but after spending an hour on a beautiful, smooth highway, another half hour on a rough road with really not a lot of scenery (at least in comparison to most other places in Moab) wasn't really appreciated.

But then you're at the trail!  Well, not really.  The next ~3 miles took about an hour, and it was more of just a worse road than a trail.  Not smooth enough to go fast, but not rough enough to be challenging.  And still not particularly scenic as you mostly wind through scrub pine.


But now the trail starts!  And now it's for real!  The first obstacle is the hardest.  At first it looked like the right side would be the hardest with a bypass to the left.  (Here's a picture of the right side from the drive back down)


Lesley asked me to take the bypass so I did.  But the "bypass" just made the climb later, and was hardest right before the two joined up.  As it turned out I couldn't quite make it up the last ledge on this section, even with the front locker (the second time on the trip I'd engaged it).  I thought about repositioning for another stab at it, and I thought about backing down and going up the first part we had seen.  But I decided to take the quick way out and winched over the ledge.


And it's this section that makes me not recommend this trail for beginners.  Or more accurately, it's the trail up to this section that makes me not recommend it.  This section isn't really that hard.  I'm sure a truck like Big Blue could do it, either driving up the right side (two pictures up) or driving and maybe winching up the left side (picture above).  But as I noted, Lesley didn't want me to take what ended up being the easier route.  Gary, I'm actually sure that you and Big Blue could get up this obstacle.  I just think it'll take more experience before you (and Janey) would decide to go forward rather than turn around at this point.  As I've said before, there's no shame in tuning around, but in this case it would be a shame to have traveled the last hour and a half up a rough, not scenic, and not fun trail, only to have to turn around and repeat it without getting to do the rest of the trail (I'm not counting the two hour rond-trip on highway 128 as a loss because it's worth doing anyway).  So if you have the time and want to explore, sure, take a look at Top of the World.  Or if you look at the pictures above and think "I can do that!", go for it!  I just don't want anyone upset with me for wasting 3 hours of their vacation.

Anyway, if you get beyond that first obstacle, from there to the top it's a constant stream of challenging ledges.  Nothing too extreme, but consistently fun!  I did need the front locker one more time, as well as a slight bump once to get the back tires up  (no pictures of that, Lesley was shooting video at that time).  But that one bump and the one winch were the only times in the entire week I didn't crawl all of the obstacles.






It took an hour and a half to get the next ~1.5 miles (a half hour of that was winching over that first ledge), but it was a fun hour and a half!  And at the end of that is the trail's namesake, the Top of the World!  Lesley had Googled the trail (as she had the others I told her we were doing) and had made me promise not to drive too far out on the ledge, so I let her tell me when to stop.  When she did stop me I told her that I had to pull at least a LITTLE farther forward, otherwise we wouldn't get both the Bronco and the ledge in the same picture!  So this is where we ended up


I even got her to stand in front of the Bronco!


(We won't say how hard she was holding onto the front bumper with her other hand!)

And I know that there are pictures of a lot of vehicles quite a bit farther out.  But here's the view from the passenger seat where we did stop (and no, Lesley wasn't in the Bronco as I drove out, she was firmly planted on the wide point where the pictures are taken from).


After that we backed off the ledge and had a nice picnic.


While we were there two couples in/on side-by-sides and ATVs drove up.  One couple took a picture sitting with their legs hanging over the ledge.  Lesley saw that and said "Hey, I can do that!"  So she handed her camera to one of them, sat down about 6 feet from the edge and scootched up to it.  So I sat down beside her for this picture


The best part about this was that evening after we down loaded the pictures and were looking at them on the computer screen.  Lesley saw the picture looking out the passenger window and said "I had my feet hanging over that!?!?!?"  And then we got to the pictures with us sitting there and she said "AND I WAS SITTING THAT FAR OUT ON THE OVERHANG!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"  It reminds me of the T-shirt with a picture of a Jeep in some impossible position with a caption that says something like "confidence is 80% not understanding the situation"

If you go onto Google Maps and search for "Top of the World Moab" it will give you this point.  And with the satellite view you can get another perspective on this.  It's IMPRESSIVE!  My topo map says it's 2100 feet down to the creek below.

Anyway, the overlook is at the mid-point of a loop near the top of the trail.  The fourwheelers told us that if we continued around the loop there was a big ledge at the end.  I wanted to go see it, But Lesley asked if we couldn't go down the same way we had come up since she knew what to expect there.  So I don't know what the rest of the loop looks like.  As the picture above already gave away, we took the other branch at the point where we winched on the way up.  The far left side going down (right going up) wasn't too difficult and I'm sure I could have crawled that if we had taken that route going up.

The other funny thing from this trail was that I have a bad place on my flywheel ring gear, and twice in the trip the starter wouldn't engage.  The first time I just pushed the clutch in, let it roll a bit and popped the clutch.  It didn't get going fast enough to start, but it shifted the engine enough that I could use the starter.  But on Top of the World it happened on an almost perfectly smooth rock slab with a nice slope downhill.  It was the "almost" that got me!  The one bump on the slab was right in front of my tire!  Nothing I could do to get it rolling!  So I pulled cable again and winched myself DOWN an almost perfectly smooth hill!  I was unrigging the cable when the fourwheelers caught up with us.  The looks on their faces as they asked "are you OK???" was priceless!

So in the end we spent 2 hours on the highway, 1 hour on a bad gravel road, another 2 hours on a rough but kind of dull trail so we could spend about 4 hours on a really fun trail with an incredible view (an hour of which was pictures and lunch at the top, about another hour was the two winch sessions).  It was a long day (we didn't hit the pool this night, but we did still walk to the diner for shakes!), but well worth it.  As I said at the start, I'm really glad we did this trail.  The top section probably was my favorite part of the 'wheeling we did, but the rest of the trail was awfully long, so overall Hell's Revenge was my favorite.  I'm sure we'll do Top of the World again, but probably not every time we go to Moab.

edit to add in December 2021:  here's the video we shot on this day:

Wow!!!    Just WOW!  The views are beautiful.  Awe inspiring.  I want to go!

So many questions, many of which I'll forget.  But, how did you winch down?  Does your winch detach from the front and attach to the rear?  I think you told me that, but I forgot.

And, do you have two batteries?

Do you run the same tire pressure in all situations off road?  Like on that rough road vs the ledges?

I think Lesley and I think alike - no way do I want to be hanging my legs over that drop off!  But she's a trooper.

What did you say your crawl ratio is?  Big Blue's will be 55.7.  And he'll be running 33" tires like yours.  Is that low enough to crawl those things with the low-down torque of a 460?

Cool!!!

Very nice!

Gary Lewis wrote

Wow!!!    Just WOW!  The views are beautiful.  Awe inspiring.  I want to go!

"WOW!" is a really good summary!  It is a great payoff for the end of the trail!

Gary Lewis wrote

So many questions, many of which I'll forget.  But, how did you winch down?  Does your winch detach from the front and attach to the rear?  I think you told me that, but I forgot.

And, do you have two batteries?

Don't worry about asking all the questions you want here.  They aren't interruptions, they're enhancements!

I have a receiver-mount winch that I can put on either the front or back.  But both times I winched on this trail I left it on the front (which is where it has to ride since I have more rear overhang than front overhang, and I can't swing the spare tire closed when the winch is in the rear).  The first time I winched I was trying to get up that ledge and I needed to winch forward to get up.  The second time I really just wanted to roll a little to pop the clutch and shift the flywheel to a less worn tooth for the starter.  But I was pointed downhill so I couldn't roll backward, and there was a bump in front of one front tire that I couldn't push it over so I couldn't roll forward.  So I just winched it forward (down hill) without pushing in the clutch.  I only moved it about a foot, but that was plenty to get to a fresh tooth on the ring gear.

And no, I only have one battery.  Generally I keep the engine running while winching, so even with an old gen alternator (~50 amps?) I won't get in trouble unless it's a pretty long pull.  And I'd definitely upgrade the alternator before I'd add a second battery.

Gary Lewis wrote

Do you run the same tire pressure in all situations off road?  Like on that rough road vs the ledges?

I run 15 psi off-road (with 33/10.50x15 load range C tires).  Lower would be better, both to smooth out the road and to better grip the ledges.  But I'm conservative and don't want to lose a bead.  I probably still should drop to about 12 or so though.

Gary Lewis wrote

I think Lesley and I think alike - no way do I want to be hanging my legs over that drop off!  But she's a trooper.

I didn't suggest that, she did!  Which shocked me, but I was willing to sit next to her for the picture (and yes, I sat on the outside, I couldn't have her showing me up!).  That picture is now the desktop picture on my computer at work!

Gary Lewis wrote

What did you say your crawl ratio is?  Big Blue's will be 55.7.  And he'll be running 33" tires like yours.  Is that low enough to crawl those things with the low-down torque of a 460?

Cool!!!

I'm right around 70:1.  Yes, your crawl ratio is low enough.  Lower might be better at times (it's nice to be able to go SLOW sometimes) but that 460 will lug down better than my 302, so you can ride the brake a bit and slow it down when you need to.  And by the way, a hand throttle is a nice addition to low gearing and a manual trans.  Some people like the kind that return to idle when you let go (it helps when you want that third foot on the pedals).  But I like one that stays where I put it.  That way I can set the idle up for winching, or if I need a little more throttle to keep the 302 from stalling, or if I just want to go a little faster, but not to the next gear.  It's smoother than trying to hold a foot-feed steady while bouncing over rocks, and jerking on and off the throttle is pretty harsh in a really low gear.

Yes, that view is a worthwhile payoff for sticking with the trail.

On the winching, I misunderstood.  I thought you winched backward, but "down" was forward.  

I like the receiver-mounted idea, but I have the Warn bumper I'd really like to use as it is a classic.  However, I could make a receiver mount for the winch as it only takes pulling 4 bolts and unplugging the power cable to have it off, and then I could bolt it to the mount and use it in the rear.  However, I'd also need to lengthen my "extension cable" to get power to the rear.  Maybe I'll just not have to winch backward.

Hand throttle!  Hadn't thought of that.  I've been planning on using the PTO function on the EEC-V system to raise the idle speed so the alternator will throw more while winching.  I wonder if that would bring the idle up enough to suffice?  I don't know the specs on that though.

Speaking of batteries, I saw a FB post yesterday where a guy has a '97 460 in his '86 F350, and the driver's side of the engine compartment was pretty full.  I'm a little concerned about being able to get my aux battery in.

Anyway, I can understand using that pic on your computer.  I'd love to show my kids a pic like that of Janey and I - but she'd be the one on the outside!  

Gary Lewis wrote

....  I like the receiver-mounted idea, but I have the Warn bumper I'd really like to use as it is a classic.  However, I could make a receiver mount for the winch as it only takes pulling 4 bolts and unplugging the power cable to have it off, and then I could bolt it to the mount and use it in the rear.  However, I'd also need to lengthen my "extension cable" to get power to the rear.  Maybe I'll just not have to winch backward.

A solid-mount winch probably is best for a heavy truck with a strong winch (Big Blue and his winch are probably both more than 25% heavier / stronger than my setup).  And I think in all the 'wheeling I've done there have only been one or two times that I'd have winched backward if I'd had the option (although one time in particular I REALLY wish I'd have had that option).  I did the receiver mount mainly because I didn't want to redo my front bumper to add a permanent winch.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  Speaking of batteries, I saw a FB post yesterday where a guy has a '97 460 in his '86 F350, and the driver's side of the engine compartment was pretty full.  I'm a little concerned about being able to get my aux battery in....

When I had my '95 F-150 SuperCab I had dual batteries in it, with both batteries on the right side.  I got the kit from Wrangler Power Products and it replaced the factory battery tray with one that held both batteries (I had the stock size battery and an Optima, but two stock batteries would've fit too).  I don't know if they're still around, or if they have anything that fits an '85 truck.  But that might be an option for you.

A couple things I thought to add...

During the 6 hours we were on Top of the World trail we saw 3 different groups of people.  A couple dirt bikes passed us on the way up, the 4 people on ATVs caught us at the top and then passed us on the way down, and we met 2 Jeeps that were coming in as we were getting back near the trailhead.  So again, very little traffic, but it wasn't like we were entirely on our own.

We also saw two different Suburbans driving down the dirt road as we drove up (it looks like there's some sort of retreat center off that road).  And as we drove out on the dirt road we met a couple people on mountain bikes.  That was actually briefly exciting as I came around a corner at the blistering pace of 10 mph and suddenly there was a guy on a bike coming toward me on my side of the road.  I stopped easily before we got too close to hitting, but I did lock the brakes and threw some gravel in the process, which probably spooked him a bit.  The bikes were struggling up a pretty steep (for a bike) hill at that point, and between that and the surprise of seeing a Bronco sliding toward him he laid it down.  But he pretty much stayed on his feet as the bike went down, and there didn't seem to be any injury or damage (his buddy was a little further back and didn't have any such trouble).


Also, when we were in Moab (mid September) the temps were pretty reasonable (highs started in the upper 80s, dropping to the upper 70s by the end of the week).  But it is desert, and in the summer it gets HOT there.  We heard that the heat index on Labor Day this year was 119 F!  And since it's desert, there's very little humidity, so the actual temp must have been close to that.  The point of bringing this up is to remind people to be prepared.  You might want to avoid the area during the summer.  But if you do go when it's hot, or even when it's "cooler" like when we went, bring enough water.  On the longer days we went through about 2 liters each.  On hotter days you probably need at least a gallon per person per day.