Lost and cornfused

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Lost and cornfused

Hstrymkrs
Greetings. I will be honest and state that I have not completed an exhaustive search, but I have completed an exhausting search and now I am the question time. Please feel free to point me to a thread that I must have missed.

As I start to reassemble this 300 I6 I am shopping for a new distributor. I was hoping to put a DUI or equivalent on it and eliminate the extraneous stuff. We are putting a 500 cfm 4bbl Summit Holley clone on it. I am almost positive that it is a non feedback carb.

I have been searching here, Full Size Bronco and FordSix as well, but I can't find a specific thread that answers my questions. They all trail off to converting to a Duraspark II. I don't feel a strong inclination to doing this. My thoughts on changing it is for improved performance. I might have missed something along the way. What is best way to change one of these ignition systems. Does anyone have any recommendations? Why do people hunt for the duraspark rather than just go aftermarket? What am I missing in more ways than one?

Thank you,

William
1985 Ford Bronco XLT, 4.9L, NP-435 transmission, NP0208 transfer case, 3.55 limited slip rear end,TTB Dana 44 with 3.54
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Re: Lost and cornfused

Gary Lewis
Administrator
William - I like your use of the English language.  Exhaustive and exhausting.  Well put.  It painted a very clear picture.

I don't know that there is one thread or even a combo of threads that would answer your questions, plural.  So, let me try here.

You said you want "improved performance", and I think you mean as compared to an EEC system w/a feedback carb.  But, just in case you meant improved performance w/an aftermarket ignition system instead of Duraspark II, let me say that I don't believe there's any performance to be had via aftermarket.  At least assuming that the same timing curve is in the DS-II as the aftermarket.  That's because with the reasonably easy to fire conditions in most engines in these trucks, and especially one where you've added an aftermarket carb, ignition is ignition.  You see, most aftermarket carbs are going to give you a relatively rich air/fuel mix that is easy to fire, and both approaches will fire it handily.

But, back to "why not aftermarket"?  And I'd say that most people want to keep a Ford ignition system under the hood.  But, an HEI actually makes a lot of sense because they take one wire to power them.  That's because it has the coil built into the distributor, so you feed power in and get spark out.  And the only thing you need to do is to install a relay that gives it power when the key is on - and plenty of power at that because the HEI system like a lot.  But, there's a downside - the HEI distributor is large, so you have to ensure there's room for it on your system.

However, a DUI, from what I've seen, doesn't have a coil in it so you now need to use the ballast resistor in the Ford harness.  But, you don't need the relay as you do with the HEI.  Nor do you need the DS-II box nor the DS-II harness.

So, in some ways the HEI is easier as it is a fully integrated system.  But you need the relay.  On the other hand, the DUI has to have an outboard coil, but that can be powered by the already-there harness.

Does that help?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lost and cornfused

Steve83
Banned User
In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs
Hstrymkrs wrote
...300 I6 I am shopping for a new distributor. I was hoping to put a DUI or equivalent on it...
Why do people hunt for the duraspark rather than just go aftermarket? What am I missing in more ways than one?
I don't recall ever seeing a DUI for the 300/4.9, but I have to admit: I don't really look for them.  My 4.9L is bone-stock with nearly a million miles, and still runs like new.  I've never heard anyone get close to that from a heavily-modified engine, or one with an aftermarket distributor design.
Hstrymkrs wrote
...eliminate the extraneous stuff.
Ford didn't put "extraneous stuff" on these trucks.  They have what they need to run & pass emissions when they were built.
Hstrymkrs wrote
We are putting a 500 cfm 4bbl Summit Holley clone on it.
I doubt it'll perform the way you expect, but I wish you luck.
Hstrymkrs wrote
I am almost positive that it is a non feedback carb.
Me, too!
Hstrymkrs wrote
My thoughts on changing it is for improved performance.
"Improved" is very subjective - exactly what performance do you want to improve?  Reliability?  Durability?  Factory parts & systems (though not necessarily what the factory used when your truck was being built) are nearly always leaps & bounds ahead of aftermarket.
Hstrymkrs wrote
What is best way to change one of these ignition systems.
"Best" is very subjective; the easiest & most-cost-effective way that will actually make a noticeable improvement would be to convert to TFI-IV, but it's not a truly standalone system...  It requires an EEC-IV with several functioning sensors to calculate the timing curves.
Hstrymkrs wrote
Does anyone have any recommendations?
Drop in the newest complete EFI engine with all its original emissions controls that you can find, afford, & fit in there.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

Rembrant
In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs
Gary Lewis wrote
However, a DUI, from what I've seen, doesn't have a coil in it so you now need to use the ballast resistor in the Ford harness.  But, you don't need the relay as you do with the HEI.  Nor do you need the DS-II box nor the DS-II harness.
Hey Gary, aren't DUI and HEI one in the same thing?....I mean, isn't an HEI a type of DUI? Both commonly refer to a one-wire ignition set-up, don't they? I thought that HEI was just the GM term that stuck to all of them (kinda like Stepside stuck instead of Flareside...lol).

Hstrymkrs wrote
My thoughts on changing it is for improved performance. I might have missed something along the way. What is best way to change one of these ignition systems. Does anyone have any recommendations? Why do people hunt for the duraspark rather than just go aftermarket? What am I missing in more ways than one?
The Duraspark ignition is one of those things that Ford got right. They're solid, reliable, available, etc. They're universally loved by all Ford purists...lol.

The only benefits of going aftermarket "one-wire" on a street driven truck IMHO would be ease of purchase (You can order online and it just shows up at the door ready to install), and second, for a neat and tidy appearance. The original 35-40 year old wiring and connectors can be rotten, brittle, and degrading...and some people just like to get rid of all of it, for good reason.

There wouldn't be any performance gain from an aftermarket performance ignition unless you're running over 5000 RPM on a race application. For daily driving and mild hotrodding, a stock ignition will give you all the spark you need.

Having said all that, those HEI-style distributors are a really common swap. I know when looking online at old Bullnose trucks for sale, a lot of them have those distributors. Personally, I don't like the look of them up front on a Ford (SBF) engine. They're kind of out-of-sight on the back end of the Chevy's. On a 300/6, off to the side, there's probably lots of room for them?


1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: Lost and cornfused

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs
William,

To answer your question as to why people go Duraspark II. Most likely because it is very reliable and when something goes wrong parts can be found almost everywhere.

I don't know what other changes you have made to your engine that might necessitate a 'higher performance' ignition system. The Ford inline six engine is generally regarded as incredibly reliable and a torque monster.
Maybe you've installed bigger/better pistons, cam, valves, rods, headers and intake. Maybe you've done a bunch of porting and increased the compression. Maybe you expect to rev it to 6k rpm or beyond.

If you just want a one wire HEI style ignition to clean up the engine bay Skip White sells them individually or as a kit with plug wires.
Their instructions detail what Gary said about using a relay and heavy wire to connect it.
https://www.skipwhiteperformance.com/catalog/category/distributors/ford-6cyl-dist_7486/
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Rembrant
Well, I was WRONG!    I looked up Davis Unified Ignition, which is DUI, and most of the distributors I saw were "HEI" style, meaning large and including an internal coil.  However, they do make DS-II distributors, coils, ignition wires, etc.  So, to be more accurate, "DUI" is a brand of ignition components, including but not limited to HEI-style distributors.

My confusion came from a discussion with Tim Meyer, who was originally going to have DUI populate a distributor housing he manufactured.  This was going to include the HEI ignition module, but not the coil, in the distributor, so it was the same size as and looked like a Ford distributor.  And, it required the outboard coil, like the DS system, just not the DS module.

DUI didn't get the job done in a timely fashion, and he wound up making them with someone else.  He calls them Track Boss RTR, meaning Ready To Run, and says they require 3 wires: "1-hot, 1-ground, 1-negative side of coil. External ignition module not needed."  In other words, you don't need to find a DS-II module, wiring harness, and distributor.  Just put this dizzy in and connect it to the existing power wire, ground, and the coil.

Tim doesn't, yet, have one for the 300 six, but asked for a pic of a dizzy for the 300 and would consider making them.  I've not gotten him the pic, but do y'all think there would be an interest?  


Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lost and cornfused

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary,

While Davis does offer DSII style distributors, Davis UNIFIED Ignition describes a coil in cap 'all in one' type.
I went to their site and while they show Ford 300 I-6 options for both "race" and "street &strip" DUI, their configurator shows "no products match your search"
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

Steve83
Banned User
Rembrant wrote
...aren't DUI and HEI one in the same thing?....I mean, isn't an HEI a type of DUI?
No, they're not actually related.  Davis has typically used HEI coils, but the concept would still work with an older (oil-filled) coil.  Modern coils are substantially more-efficient, and modern ignition control modules allow more-precise control of dwell; both of which allows them to produce a higher-energy spark than could be expected from older technology, leading to the "High-Energy Ignition" distinction being created.  But the TFI-IV system is an HEI, just like all other modern ignition systems.  And I think a modern TFI-IV-style E-core coil can be used on older trucks without any other mods (I think I did for a little while).  If used with a DS-II or DS-III, those systems would probably qualify as HEI after that mod.
Rembrant wrote
...benefits of going aftermarket "one-wire" on a street driven truck IMHO would be ease of purchase...
But the DRAWBACK for a street vehicle is that it makes it TOO EASY to hotwire.  And that's really the origin of the word "hotwire" - you just run 1 "hot" (12V) wire to the ignition system, and the engine will run.
ArdWrknTrk wrote
...Davis UNIFIED Ignition describes a coil in cap 'all in one' type.
Coil, cap, AND ignition module inside the distributor body.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary, et al, FWIW, when the Prince of Darkness, Lord Joseph Lucas, decided to service a replacement for the OPUS system (oscillating Pick Up coil System) they released what was sold as Lucas Constant Energy system. It has what reminded me of the old Chrysler electronic ignition pickup coil with a 4 or 6 point reluctor and it was packaged with an aluminum box with a pair of connections on 90° away from each other sides. Inside the box (which served as a heat sink) was a 4 pin GM HEI module. Instructions were to mount it under the coil on MGs and discard the ballast resistor connecting the positive wire directly to the coil + terminal.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Lost and cornfused

Hstrymkrs
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
This is one of the problems that I am running into. They show the distributor, but then say it doesn't fit the application.

I am fairly green at this, so forgive me if I use a general term that might need more clarification. I have been turning wrenches for many years, and I worked on generators in the military. I understand how engines work, and I can most always get them running. However, I have much to learn on the specifics and the fine tuning of the things.

By increased performance, I merely imply that I want it to run efficiently and smooth primarily, and if it gives me a little extra horses that is great. I haven't done anything to the engine other than send it off to the machine shop to have it gone through and reassembled. It is bored 0.040 over and we put a cam that claims to help increase torque/horsepower. I do not expect it to be a high RPM engine as my main goal is torque for off-road enjoyment and cruising for the joy of driving an older full size Bronco.

While I am not against the DS-II, it just seemed easier to put a DUI/HEI and move on. Whenvever I would read about them, the thread would always turn into a DS-II thread and never really go anywhere else. Most of the DUI/HEI are for the V8 and the smaller inline 6s. I was initially confused as the TFI-IV seemed to be a hybrid/transition from the carburetor to the EFI systems. I am not sure what it would take to convert to a fully EFI system, but I would think that would add cost that I can't afford. The engine is ready to go as soon as I reassemble the all the accouterments, so I am not certain that changing in mid build is a good idea for me at this moment. Additionally, I am deleting the EGR/Smog pump only because it adds extra cost to bringing this thing back up and running. My smog pump is seized up wont even make a good boat anchor.

Honestly, I am just trying to do a modest rebuild and hope to get the most out of the engine, i.e., reliability and strength.

This truck has great memories for me, and I just want to get it back up and running well without needing a second mortgage. The junk yards around here just plain suck. They want too much money for their stuff and the closest pick-n-pull is 2 hours away. If the DS-II is great and reliable then I can go that way, but the threads make is seem so complicated. I have a bad distributor and I need a new one. I don't want to cut corners, I just don't have the money to get everything now. I would honestly be happy with it being stock again. It just doesn't seem practical...not that putting any money into this old of a vehicle is practical in any way.

I appreciate all the replies and attempts to help. I will reread them and try to clarify my objectives more.

You all are a great help.

You ask what I want to do with my Bronco? Here you go!

<nabble_embed>https://youtu.be/mOkxNBbZuqk</nabble_embed>

William


1985 Ford Bronco XLT, 4.9L, NP-435 transmission, NP0208 transfer case, 3.55 limited slip rear end,TTB Dana 44 with 3.54
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Re: Lost and cornfused

Hstrymkrs
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
I know these are stock pictures, but they all show the vacuum hookup. There is not vacuum advance on my engine as it uses the ICM and the PCM to electronically/mechanically control the advance. This is where I get confused. The Haynes manual states the the TFI-IV is very similar in function to the DS-III. However, I can't find what seems to be an affordable and straight forward option.  Maybe I am thinking incorrectly and maybe I am looking for a pink unicorn. What I want doesn't exist?
1985 Ford Bronco XLT, 4.9L, NP-435 transmission, NP0208 transfer case, 3.55 limited slip rear end,TTB Dana 44 with 3.54
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Re: Lost and cornfused

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
What you want exists.

I'm sorry to have posted a link to the other Ford I-6 series. It's a bit hard to navigate between pages and links on my phone in the reply window.

You need a distributor for a 2.9 or 4.9L engine aka 240 or 300 I-6

Look on Amazon or eBay. They're out there.

You will NEED to use vacuum advance because without a computer to plot the curve (DSII -or- HEI) you are relying on centrifugal springs and that canister to pull the backing plate around.

The vacuum tells the distributor something about engine load and throttle position.
A locked out distributor is good for wfo race conditions only.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs
Ok, first, you obviously have a feedback carburetor system. If you want to make changes it is all or nothing. Any changes you make to the ignition system can screw up the mixture control as it is and integrated system. The reason Jim can't find anything for your application, is these fine Chinese systems are made for non-computer controlled engines.

As far as DS-II, all the wiring is already on your truck, 1985-86 models were built to be able to use multiple systems with minimal changes. If you look at the 1985 and 1986 EVTMs you will notice some strange wiring on the ignition systems. The TFI system does not need or use a ballast resistor, but the DS-II does. Ford built the front harness so whatever system was needed for the engine/weight class and emission requirements would be plug and play. A junkyard DS-II system for a 4.9L will drop in, but your still need to change the carburetor to get everything to play well together.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Lost and cornfused

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Bill,

I can find them.
Linking from the Amazon or eBay app on my phone needs some kind of workaround.
Because this forum is not privy to my history in those apps. (as it should be)


I personally think Williams 500cfm carb is way too big for for the application.
Largest I've gone on a 300 is the somewhat obscure 435 cfm 4160, and that was on a decked, cammed and bored 300 with an Offy intake and EFI manifolds.
It was ok but still seemed a bit soft even with a lot of tuning of secondary springs.

You would know better than me
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I'm going to try and log out of eBay and Amazon and then pull up the items in my browser.

Let's see if this works....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-TEAM-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-FORD-240-and-300-ENGINES-BLUE-CAP-F100-F150-F250-E150-/262671083747?redirect=mobile

https://www.ebay.com/i/191838774982?chn=ps&ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F711-117182-37290-0%252F2%253Fmpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fi%25252F191838774982%25253Fchn%25253Dps%2526itemid%253D191838774982%2526targetid%253D593772395653%2526device%253Dt%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9003452%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D1661457327%2526adgroupid%253D63612800546%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-593772395653%2526abcId%253D1140466%2526merchantid%253D8298174%2526gclid%253DCj0KCQiA68bhBRCKARIsABYUGicvIJb-vkq-LmzVlr3a6PSDHEb_FzxzVtSLtSloUn4_vkReVru1r9oaAm95EALw_wcB%2526srcrot%253D711-117182-37290-0%2526rvr_id%253D1810012423829%2526rvr_ts%253D25cd3e891680ac3ca59669c7fff09bd3

https://www.amazon.com/HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-FORD-ENGINES-BLUE/dp/B01CH23N2U

https://www.amazon.com/Team-Performance-Distributor-Compatible-Instillation/dp/B073WM92CQ/ref=pd_cp_263_1?pd_rd_w=WUrWt&pf_rd_p=ef4dc990-a9ca-4945-ae0b-f8d549198ed6&pf_rd_r=FMW9AMPBPEAHP19BEY32&pd_rd_r=cc4efda9-1216-11e9-aa93-791c7bad081c&pd_rd_wg=OjHl6&pd_rd_i=B073WM92CQ&psc=1&refRID=FMW9AMPBPEAHP19BEY32
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

85lebaront2
Administrator
Did great sir, finest Chinese ignition systems! I personally would buy a junkyard DS-II system and plug it in.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Lost and cornfused

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Yup, but he says he wants a one wire dizzy at an affordable price, and that there are no junkyards to pick from.

So I link what he asked for.

If it gets his Bronco back on the road or trails it's all good.  
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Lost and cornfused

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Hstrymkrs
Let's see if this works:



It did.  You have to get the "embed" code.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Lost and cornfused

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
I hope it works for him. Just don't ask me for help!
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Lost and cornfused

Hstrymkrs
Thanks again to you all. I am not trying to be difficult, just trying to learn. I will look at these links and mull over the responses in hopes of coming to a better understanding of how it all works and changes over.

Thanks again.

William
1985 Ford Bronco XLT, 4.9L, NP-435 transmission, NP0208 transfer case, 3.55 limited slip rear end,TTB Dana 44 with 3.54
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