Intermittent no crank issue

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Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
This post was updated on .
A few weeks ago I was coming out of Lowe's...I got into the truck, tried to start it, and only got a 'RRRrrr' for my trouble as the starter tried and failed to crank the truck.  So I popped the hood, looked around, and determined that the negative battery cable was a little loose on the battery terminal.  I tightened it up the best I could, got back in, and the truck started right up and I was on my way home.

It was the battery cable, right?  Well, that's what I thought...so I got a replacement from NAPA, ensured my ground point was clean (my factory original cable is long gone, so I have a cable from the battery to the ground point on the frame, and then a second cable from there to the starter motor bolt), and swapped it in.  Easy peasy.

Until yesterday...I got into the truck, tried to start it, and 'RRRrrr'.  Clearly the cable wasn't the problem...so I went into the house, got my meter, put it on the battery and read 12.4v.  No problem there...got back in the truck and it started right up (note that at this point I hadn't touched or wiggled anything, other than to touch the meter to the battery terminals).  Put the meter on the battery while the truck was running, 14.2v.  So my charging system seems OK.

The cable from the positive battery terminal to the starter relay on the fender is tight and relatively new.  I'm going to check the cable from the ground point to the starter bolt, and from the solenoid to the starter, but I'll be surprised if either of them are the culprit; my wiring is overall in pretty good shape.

If the wiring isn't the problem, am I looking at a starter issue?  Can a starter (or starter solenoid) fail in such a way that it'll occasionally behave as though the battery is drained, but five minutes later start without problem?

 
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
The starter relay (solenoids move things, not make a connection)
can get pitted from arcing internally.

If the contacts wind up in a place where the arced surface is touching point to point it can pass some current, but not enough current.

I think Chris posted pictures of one cut open on FTE, when I bisected a heater core to show there was no direction to flow
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
ArdWrknTrk wrote
The starter relay (solenoids move things, not make a connection)
can get pitted from arcing internally.

If the contacts wind up in a place where the arced surface is touching point to point it can pass some current, but not enough current.

I think Chris posted pictures of one cut open on FTE, when I bisected a heater core to show there was no direction to flow
Just to be clear, we're talking about the thing on the fender and not the thing on the starter, correct?  I grew up calling the thing on the fender a solenoid, but yes, it's a relay.

Assuming we're talking about the relay on the fender, can it fail in such a way that it occasionally doesn't pass enough current, but 98% of the time works perfectly?

And if so, where can I buy a good replacement?  I keep hearing about crappy Chinese ones that fail regularly, I'd happily pay more for a good solid replacement.
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

grumpin
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
Warm starting issues can be your timing advanced too far. Mine did that when I got it, it was at 22° BTDC.
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Dorsai
I just told you how, and where to see pictures..

Even 'the best' names like Prestolite and Cole-Hersee are made 'over there' now.

Check the huge variety at Texas industrial Electric:
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
ArdWrknTrk wrote
I just told you how, and where to see pictures..
That's...super helpful.  Thank you.
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Sorry Matthew.

I'm on my phone and trying to wrap up a day that had a start 'before 6:00'

Give me a chance to get back and cool off, I'll go looking for Chris's post for you.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
Lol, don’t worry about it - I don’t need a photo, the relay is right there in my truck.
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Do you have X-Ray vision, 😵 or are you going to cut yours open like Chris, so you can see how badly the contacts are pitted?  😉
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
ArdWrknTrk wrote
Do you have X-Ray vision, 😵 or are you going to cut yours open like Chris, so you can see how badly the contacts are pitted?  😉
That's actually not a bad idea...I hadn't considered it, but why not?
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
  I'm on page 12 of 38 for Chris's mentions of 'starter solenoid' over at fte.....

Working on it
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
ArdWrknTrk wrote
  I'm on page 12 of 38 for Chris's mentions of 'starter solenoid' over at fte.....

Working on it
Like I said...really, no need.  But I do appreciate the willingness.

Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
Oh...and unless he rehosted the images somewhere, they may be gone:

"I had some neato pictures of this before the image-hosting company went to a pay-for model.... " - ctubutis
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Yeah, I just found that too.....


Where's the gif with the stick figure in a typing frenzy bloodying his hands and then bashing his head into oblivion on the *keyboard?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
We used to take GM starter solenoids, and that’s the right term, apart and flip the contact washers and rotate the contact posts. That gave us completely new contact patches. I remember doing that on the lake on a 350 Chevy.

Can that be done on a Ford relay by drilling the rivets?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
Gary Lewis wrote
We used to take GM starter solenoids, and that’s the right term, apart and flip the contact washers and rotate the contact posts. That gave us completely new contact patches. I remember doing that on the lake on a 350 Chevy.

Can that be done on a Ford relay by drilling the rivets?
Interesting idea.  Maybe I'll drill mine out instead of cutting it.
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

FuzzFace2
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
ArdWrknTrk wrote
Sorry Matthew.

I'm on my phone and trying to wrap up a day that had a start 'before 6:00'

Give me a chance to get back and cool off, I'll go looking for Chris's post for you.
6:00 heck I am at work for an hour on my late start days.

This noise does it sound like the starter is spinning or the relay buzzing?
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Are you on a roof in the glaring sun and thunderstorms for 12 hours, or are you in the Air Conditioned cab of a truck?

I shouldn't groan about this heat and humidity.
I'm sure you and Matthew have it worse.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

Dorsai
ArdWrknTrk wrote
I shouldn't groan about this heat and humidity.
I'm sure you and Matthew have it worse.
It's stupid hot and humid here, but I also work from my home office in the basement of my air-conditioned house.  I know I have it pretty good.

Also:

Dorsai wrote
Interesting idea.  Maybe I'll drill mine out instead of cutting it.
WTF am I saying?  The relay still works 98% of the time (if it's even at fault), so it's going into the emergency spares box.  No vivisections here, sorry.
Matthew
1980 F-150 Custom 2wd longbed, 300-6, C6, 2.75 rear axle
Atlanta GA
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Re: Intermittent no crank issue

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Hmmm
I've often wondered about your avatar.
Now I know, it's the moleman.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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