Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

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Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

RenoHuskerDu
The F550 I just bought came from Iowa corn country and has rust damage up where it was difficult to rinse off. The rust is not structural but it looks like crap and I want this truck to be a keeper.

I found a local guy who will sandblast it for $200, which seems really fair. I just need to remove what I can and loosen up the wiring harness so's he can pull it aside.

I had the idea to get the frame Line-X'd after it was clean, so I called a guy I trust who does a lot. His entire 70s Blazer's sheet metal is Line-X'd, for example. He said heck, he'd take my money, but I should not do it. Too many problems with getting a good ground on the frame for lights etc, and there's always some pocket or three of rust under the coating.  His suggestion after sandblasting is to just buy some cans of that nasty sticky 3M undercoating and have at it like a rattle can paint job.

Anybody BTDT?
Reno in Central Texas, 86 F250 XLT Lariat eclb 2wd 6.9, plus 2 Bricknoses, 1 Aeronose that's getting a Bullnose front clip, and parts trucks. Busy lads, father and sons wrenchers.
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

Danny G
Neither is a good Idea, the rattle cans are not that great and linx will probably allow rust to form under it, as you mentioned.

I would hit the whole thing with a proven rust preventative/converter like Eastwoods Chassis saver, a POR product, or Corroseal, then paint over top of that. Any place you need a ground at you can sand/grind clean install your ground and seal the whole area up with some polysulfide sealant.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I agree.  A rust converter will bond VERY tightly to the rust, but not quite as well to bare metal.  So some people prefer to use the rust converter on rusty metal, although you have to have the loose stuff off in order to do that.  Others have said they leave their clean metal out in the elements to surface rust and then paint it on that.

But the way POR recommends is to use a phosphate etching material and then hit it with their rust converter.  The phosphate etches the metal to provide a texture into which the paint can settle an to which it can grip.  I've done that, but I've also used POR-15 on freshly media-blasted parts and it has adhered extremely well.

Also, many rust converters are not UV stable and they turn white over time if they get hit with UV.  So it is recommended that you top-coat them to protect them.  POR sells a top coat for use on their rust converter.  I've had good luck with it, but find it VERY difficult to tell where I've painted the top coat on if the POR-15 is black.  So I do one of two things now:

Use the POR silver rust converter so I can tell where I've painted the Chassis Black top coat

Spray a good quality Chassis Black top coat with a rattle can

Either of those has to be done will the rust converter is tacky, and spraying is MUCH faster, so that's my preferred way now.  I can't say that it is as durable as the POR top coat since I've not been doing it that long, but it sure seems to work.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

Rembrant
In reply to this post by RenoHuskerDu
RenoHuskerDu wrote
Anybody BTDT?
The frame in my '84 was not pretty. I was going to have it sand blasted, but I decided on a different approach. I cleaned mine with wire cup wheels on angle grinders, and then just regular wire wheels in a hand drill in some spots. I got it as clean as possible.



I cleaned the grease and dirt and crap off of it with brake cleaner and lacquer thinner in the tougher spots.
I then applied Ospho Rust Treatment by hand (with a brush) and really soaked it down. You can see below how it all turned white on the residual rust that was remaining...and was dripping on the floor. http://www.ospho.com/



I let that dry for 24 hours, and then primed with a rust primer.



And then sprayed gloss black rust paint, and so far it has been standing up pretty well.




Would I have liked to strip the frame bare and have it sand blasted? Absolutely. However, time and space, etc was a problem for me. I did the best I could with what I had to work with.

PS: Just to add, I painted with a paint gun, and had to really thin out the rust paint to get it to spray at all. The good news was that it went on good and thick...I didn't really have much choice. However, it seems to be a nice hard coating yet it is flexible enough to have no problems on the frame.

1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I'm in the phosphoric acid and paint camp.

Kleenstrip metal and concrete prep was $18 a gallon @ Home Depot.
It dilutes about 4-5:1.
Converting ferrous and ferric oxide to phosphates.
It will soak into crevices that you could never abrasively clean, and gets right down to solid steel.

Harbor Freight has an HVLP paint gun for $9.97 right now.
But a couple and toss them if they get bad, or use them as donors for the next one.

I thin Rustoleum with *turpentine* and spray that on too.
Get a bigger fluid tip if you can't spray enough solids to cover.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

Danny G
ArdWrknTrk wrote
I'm in the phosphoric acid and paint camp.

Kleenstrip metal and concrete prep was $18 a gallon @ Home Depot.
It dilutes about 4-5:1.
Converting ferrous and ferric oxide to phosphates.
It will soak into crevices that you could never abrasively clean, and gets right down to solid steel.

Harbor Freight has an HVLP paint gun for $9.97 right now.
But a couple and toss them if they get bad, or use them as donors for the next one.

I thin Rustoleum with *turpentine* and spray that on too.
Get a bigger fluid tip if you can't spray enough solids to cover.
This is a great option, straight chemistry Fe2O3 +H3PO4 -> FePO4. I didn't realize kleenstrip was phosphoric acid. This is the same process used to make the Iron Pillar of Delhi rust proof. That pillar is over 1600 years old and has no top coat. SO doing that to your frame is sure to make it utterly rust proof.

Talking about top coat. It would seem the frame needs some pretty durable paint. So is ceramic paints like  POR-15 and other engine paints the way to go?
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I pretty much use DTM industrial maintenance Alkyds.
Ben Moore Super Spec, Rust-Oleum commercial, whatever I can get that is used for exterior steel like stairs and guardrails.

There is something about turpines that causes tremendous capillary action and self leveling of these paints.
Sometimes I use a metallic salt dryer/hardner as well.
Insul-X makes one.
Cobalt used to be common, but like all things good, there was a downside to those constantly exposed to too much.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

Angelo Voltura
When dad and myself did his truck we needle scaled it and then hit it with the wire wheel. Then we laid down some Loctite rust converter, primed it, top coated it with black paint and then hit it with rubberized undercoating in certain areas. Then we top coated it again. It hasn't rusted in 2 years or so since we did it. Later on we added dual tanks etc.




1978 F150 351W
1979 F150 "410M"
1979 F100 302
1979 F250 400
1987 F150 300
1990 F150 302
1991 F150 300
1995 F150 (1985 clip swapped) 300
1997 F250 351W
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

RenoHuskerDu
I was actually able to blast off most of the scale from the frame where the rust was worst, up high under the bed in the back where it was nearly impossible to rinse off the magnesium chloride from Iowa winters.. The pressure washer just peeled it off. I also removed my outer wheels and took a look at what's on the insides of the dualies. There's rust there also. I'm looking at Corroseal now as the best choice for me. I'm wondering whether or not it's suitable to use on wheels where there could be some flex that might cause it to chip or crack.

Who has used Corroseal and is satisfied with it, or unhappy ?
Reno in Central Texas, 86 F250 XLT Lariat eclb 2wd 6.9, plus 2 Bricknoses, 1 Aeronose that's getting a Bullnose front clip, and parts trucks. Busy lads, father and sons wrenchers.
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I've used very similar 'rust converters' on static structures.

But again, I want to get RID of oxides, not turn them to a different oxide (Fe3O4) and I don't want anything resilient and water based (Latex) that has surface tension -that rust can get, and travel under.
,
Wrought iron patio furniture is not a truck frame, so I can't speak to magchloride exposure.
These products do have their place.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Frame rust and undercoating update

RenoHuskerDu
Seems I shot myself in the foot already. I Bin Readin on rust converters; all require oil-free surface.  I've doused this truck liberally with ATF/Acetone mix in order to get nuts and bolts free. Had to go buy a 3/4" impact driver and sockets just to get the lug nuts loose, for example. I doused the leaf packs in anticipation of pulling out a leaf or two for better ride. I doused the airbag perches to R&R, as they got bent from using the boom off to one side, with no outriggers on the truck (I removed the crane).

So I could either
1) attempt a fastidious degreasing op on what is essentially a porous media (rust)
2) or consider using an dinosaur-based rust resistant undercoating instead

Because this is Central Texas, and despite the Grand Solar Minimum we are predominantly dry and entirely salt-free, I'm leaning heavily towards option 2.  Flying gravel from our country driveways would also pose less risk to a thick wax/petro coating than to converted rust aka Fe2O3.

My leading candidate now is CRC 06026 Heavy Duty Corrosion Inhibitor in rattle cans. https://tinyurl.com/yxxngbj8
What do you guys recommend?  Keep in mind that it's a work truck to haul a heavy trailer to the gravel quarry and build driveways. It's not a restoration project. Just a daily work driver.
Reno in Central Texas, 86 F250 XLT Lariat eclb 2wd 6.9, plus 2 Bricknoses, 1 Aeronose that's getting a Bullnose front clip, and parts trucks. Busy lads, father and sons wrenchers.
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Re: Frame rust and undercoating update

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
I'd imagine if you're dry and don't have salt, rust isn't really an issue.

I think I'd be more concerned with getting all that abrasive rock dust stuck to and between everything under the truck.

That said, beeswax and linseed oil is pretty popular around here
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Frame rust and undercoating update

RenoHuskerDu
> beeswax and linseed oil is pretty popular around here

Tried finding you on the Bullnose map but apparently I'm in the fail army.

Whereabouts do you hail from?
Reno in Central Texas, 86 F250 XLT Lariat eclb 2wd 6.9, plus 2 Bricknoses, 1 Aeronose that's getting a Bullnose front clip, and parts trucks. Busy lads, father and sons wrenchers.
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Re: Frame rust and undercoating update

Gary Lewis
Administrator
RenoHuskerDu wrote
Tried finding you on the Bullnose map but apparently I'm in the fail army.

Whereabouts do you hail from?
Finding people would be a neat feature.  I'll put it on the list.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Frame rust and undercoating update

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by RenoHuskerDu
I'm in SW Connecticut about 45 miles north of Manhattan.
The 'toe' of the state.

I'm old enough to remember rock salt mixed with ash, and sometimes 3/8 gravel.
Now we see a LOT of magnesium chloride brine put down as 'pretreatment' and straight salt during the snowfall.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

PetesPonies
In reply to this post by RenoHuskerDu
Master Series Silver is the material to use. It bonds as well on rusted material as it does on clean materiel. It is a moisture cured primer. You will not be disappointed.
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

RenoHuskerDu
That Masterseries Silver is a demanding woman, as it were
http://masterseriesct.com/page4.html
Reno in Central Texas, 86 F250 XLT Lariat eclb 2wd 6.9, plus 2 Bricknoses, 1 Aeronose that's getting a Bullnose front clip, and parts trucks. Busy lads, father and sons wrenchers.
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Re: Frame rust, Line-X and undercoating

Danny G
In reply to this post by RenoHuskerDu
Ive used coroseal in my truck. It converts rust to black magnatite (Fe3O4) and seals/primes the surface for paint.

Lessons learned... spray it and do it twice. It works really well but if you brush it on or roll it any little hole that is not covered will begin to rust again. You need to make sure you have more of any rust converter than rust. Simple chemistry states if you uses up all of your converter and still have rust left your screwed. You need to use this this stuff liberally, but doing so with a brush will leave stroke marks (again it is a primer).

So if you don't have enough on you may have to do another go with the coroseal if you see brown creeping up. I had to do a couple touch ups. You also have to wait for it to cure up before continuing where using phosphoric acid to do the conversion your going to be good to go pretty quick.

Coroseal also has heat limitations so using it near exhaust may have its issues.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Frame rust and undercoating update

Danny G
In reply to this post by RenoHuskerDu
Use a heavy degreaser like super clean to take that film of and go.

I actually cleaned up mine with mineral spirits followed by DNA.
1986 F-150|Standard Cab|4x2|300Six|C6Transmission w/3.08 rear|Name:TBD
2021 Ranger XLT Super Crew
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Re: Frame rust and undercoating update

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by RenoHuskerDu
RenoHuskerDu wrote
Tried finding you on the Bullnose map but apparently I'm in the fail army.
Turns out you can search the map page for people.  I've added this text to the page:

There are couple of features of the map that aren't intuitively obvious.  On the left in the top bar is a button that lets you display the names of the members, and then you can click on a name and be taken directly to that person's general area.  Or, having clicked on that button you can search for a member.  To do that hit Control & F at the same time to bring up the search function and then type in the member's name you are looking for and hit Enter.

Does that make sense?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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