Engine will not run above idle

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Engine will not run above idle

Machspeed
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Hey friends, hoping someone can help me overcome the frustration I'm currently having here. A couple weeks ago I hauled a trailer half way across the state and back. Upon return I noted water leaking from the intake manifold. It was leaking up front at the junction of the china wall/head/intake. Engine otherwise appeared to run fine. I pulled the intake. In the process of removing the distributor, I damaged the electrical connector to the distributor which necessitated replacing the pickup coil. I cleaned up the distributor and replaced the pickup coil. I also rebuilt the carb. I reinstalled the intake with new gaskets, nothing new, done it before, stabbed the dizzy, also nothing new, and installed the carb. Replaced plugs, dist cap, and added new plug wires. When I installed the coil, I noted a wire coming from the coil assembly that runs to what looks like a condenser was also damaged. This condenser is bolted to the coil bracket mount. I have not addressed it as I doubt it is the issue and I need another terminal if that I possible.  

All this said, I can't get this truck to run above idle and I question that the damaged condenser wire is the issue. The engine fires right up and sounds good. Give it a little gas and it stumbles and backfires out the exhaust. Lots of moisture coming out that tail pipe which is also concerning. Dipstick looks clean. See video.

I have double checked my firing order, my plug wires, and the timing. Rotor is pointing to number 1 plug terminal at TDC. I've confirmed with both finger in plug hole with compression pushing my finger out and even stuck a coat hanger in #1 cyl to access piston at TDC with timing marks on harmonic balancer at 0 degrees. Even took a timing light to it and set it for the correct timing. As I rebuilt the carb and have two of these, I stuck an old one on and still got the same results. Could that condenser be the issue? If not, I'm at wits end.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyGvWO22nr0&feature=youtu.be
       
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Gary Lewis
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Well, I may know what the problem is - the insulation is off the pickup inside the distributor.

Eli/Smoken_Choken came to the GTG a few years ago and said if you connect the vacuum advance on his truck the engine will die.  We did and it did.  Paul/Rogue_Wulf said "The pickup wires in the dizzy are shorting."  Sure enough, the insulation was off them and when you connected the vacuum advance it pulled the plate and the wires shorted.

I see that you have the vacuum advance line connected to the timed port.  (Which is where I like it.)  That means that at idle there's no vacuum and the advance, but just off idle there is.  If your wires are bad then that would explain it.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Machspeed
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Thx for the response, Gary. This is a brand new pick up. Where is this insulation that you mention located on the pick up?
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Gary Lewis
Administrator
The wires are inside the distributor and are part of the pickup, so if it is new it is unlikely that I'm right.    But the way to test that is to pull and plug the vacuum line to the distributor.

If that's not the problem then I think you may have a very lean off-idle condition.  Are you sure the accelerator pump is working?  Have you looked down the throat of the carb, with the engine off, and opened the throttle?  You should see two streams of gas squirt in.  Do you?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Machspeed
Administrator
Yep, accelerator pump is clearly working. I've adjusted the carb fully. Also, I have two of these Edelbrock carbs. The one I rebuilt was an old one. Questioning the rebuilt carb, I pulled the one that was on the truck before I replaced the intake and the problem remained unchanged. I will be pulling the vacuum advance after work today to see if that makes a difference and fixing that wire to the coil condenser. I need a new pin for the connector for which the local auto stores don't have. Thoughts on acquisition of a new uncrimped piece?

I have concerns about the amount of water exiting the tail pipes. Wondering perhaps if I may have a bad head gasket, though I'm not getting the excessive white smoke.  
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Machspeed
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Gary, got home today and fixed my electrical connection, actually found the correct connector pin at Autozone after a search on line. Fired the truck up, same behavior. I then pulled the vacuum advance hose, plugged the port and rev'd the engine for a nice smooth running engine at higher RPM's. With that, I feel better now as it is nothing major. But, I'm struggling to understand why it once ran with the vacuum advance and now it won't???  
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Gary Lewis
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Somehow the leads on the pickup in the distributor are shorting or opening up when the vacuum moves it. I would open up the distributor with the engine off, pull a vacuum on the hose and see what happens with the wires.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

ArdWrknTrk
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In reply to this post by Machspeed
Look at the grounding tab inside the distributor.

I've seen these break the wire inside the insulation before.
It is the ONLY ground for the whole ignition system.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Gary Lewis
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Yes, Jim, that would do it.

Something about the pickup in the distributor is wrong, and it may well bite you even someday w/o the vacuum hooked up.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

85lebaront2
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In reply to this post by Machspeed
Years ago in my shop, we had a Cadillac, old enough that it had breaker points (shop was sold in 1978 so it wasn't that old a car at the time) it would idle smooth as silk, but if you came off idle, it would miss, shake and almost cut off. The primary wire from the points to the coil, had a bad area right where it flexed as the vacuum advance pulled in.

Do you have a multimeter? If you do or can borrow one, you can test the pickup coil wiring with it. First verify the ground connection is solid, as Jim mentioned, the entire DS-II system grounds there. Then check the pickup resistance. While doing these checks, apply vacuum to the advance with some source, Miti-vac or a piece of hose and suck on it. The other option is to actually wiggle the wires with the cap and rotor removed. Any "blip" or change in resistance on either the ground or pickup is what you are looking for.

I am going the guess it will be in the pickup wires inside the distributor body.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Machspeed
Administrator
Hey fellas, thanks for the help!

Below is a picture of my distributor before I disassembled it in order to add the new pick up which was destroyed trying to disconnect it from the harness. I was not happy in that process. Is there an available tool to assist in removal of these connectors?

In the picture, I've circled what I think you guys are referring to the grounding tab. Please confirm?

On another note, seems like every time I touch something, I need to replace it....sheez!!! Cleaned up the terminals on the starter solenoid and note now that it is throwing sparks at start up.



   
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

85lebaront2
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That is the grounding tab, and as has been mentioned is the only ground for the DS-II system.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

1986F150Six
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In reply to this post by Machspeed
Machspeed wrote
On another note, seems like every time I touch something, I need to replace it....sheez!!! Cleaned up the terminals on the starter solenoid and note now that it is throwing sparks at start up.
My experience is that this is caused by the connections not being tight/secure. There is a lot of amperage going through these connections.
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Machspeed
Administrator
With the kind help given to me here, I think I may have a short in the new pick up coil I purchased. Not sure I can take it back. Regardless, think I may source an OEM unit. I see them on ebay. That said, I can't seem to find a part number. Seems I read somewhere on this forum about researching part numbers but can't find it. Help appreciated, thanks!
John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Gary Lewis
Administrator
John - That's 'cause the info doesn't appear to be on the site.  

But here 'tis and I'll add it to the site.  First, the illustration so you can see what the basic/generic part numbers are:



And now the full part numbers for the "stator", aka "pickup":

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Machspeed
Administrator
Thanks for posting up the diagram, Gary. Still a bit confused on the specific part. Looking at 86/ thinking that is the part# for my 86, it references a 4 cyl. I'm thinking the part I need is D4PZ 12A112-A though.

Anyway, put a vacuum on the diaphragm yesterday and it appears to advance without any issues. Talked to the people at Orielly's and they have ordered me another stator as if they will replace the one I have at no charge to me. That is not the typical case with electrical components. Guess we'll see. Won't be till Wednesday before I get it though. I may stick my meter on it and check some things. I may even hodge podge the old one together and see where that takes me.

Interesting thing I found searching the web that has me wondering now, as I removed the reluctor….."
I wish I had found this post before I changed my pickup coil...there were two possible positions for the reluctor and they looked the same...Turns out, they're quite different. I thought it was the pickup coil that was messed up, but in hindsight, it was the reluctor on backward. I finally put myself on the right track when I noticed that one point of the "star" looked like it had a dot on it. It didn't really align with the pickup, but it worked on the second try!" 

I don't recall that the reluctor could go on but one way. Thoughts on this?  

John

"Blackie" - 1986 F150 4x4 - Mildly warmed over 351W HO - Original owner
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

FuzzFace2
Machspeed wrote
Thanks for posting up the diagram, Gary. Still a bit confused on the specific part. Looking at 86/ thinking that is the part# for my 86, it references a 4 cyl. I'm thinking the part I need is D4PZ 12A112-A though.

Anyway, put a vacuum on the diaphragm yesterday and it appears to advance without any issues. Talked to the people at Orielly's and they have ordered me another stator as if they will replace the one I have at no charge to me. That is not the typical case with electrical components. Guess we'll see. Won't be till Wednesday before I get it though. I may stick my meter on it and check some things. I may even hodge podge the old one together and see where that takes me.

Interesting thing I found searching the web that has me wondering now, as I removed the reluctor….."
I wish I had found this post before I changed my pickup coil...there were two possible positions for the reluctor and they looked the same...Turns out, they're quite different. I thought it was the pickup coil that was messed up, but in hindsight, it was the reluctor on backward. I finally put myself on the right track when I noticed that one point of the "star" looked like it had a dot on it. It didn't really align with the pickup, but it worked on the second try!" 

I don't recall that the reluctor could go on but one way. Thoughts on this?
I also remember reading something about that but I have never had a dist. apart to see this.
I wonder if where the pin goes is only lined up one way as said but you where to flip it over it is now off.

I can see this if the pin is not lined up with a high point or in the center between 2 high points?
If it was off center of say 2 high points when installed 1 way it would be lined up but flip it and it would not be.
Wonder if this is what is meant?
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Machspeed
Yes, that's the right part number, but it says 1980/87 all 8 cylinder engines w/o EEC.

Yes, the plate is probably moving fine with vacuum.  But it is the electrical connections that are in question.  The 1986 EVTM has this testing procedure.  Go to Step 6 and sub-step "b".  Note the resistance from O/Y to P/LB should be 400 to 1000 ohms, and from either lead to ground should be more than 70,000 ohms.  I think if you put your meter on and do those tests things will change when you move the plate via vacuum.

Or, if it isn't the pickup wiring, then the ground might be an issue like Jim & Bill have suggested.  But something electrical is changing when you apply a vacuum, and it shouldn't.




Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: Engine will not run above idle

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Machspeed
The reluctor can definitely be replaced incorrectly.

Have a look at Scotty's DuraSpark recurve pages for details and pictures.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: Engine will not run above idle

85lebaront2
Administrator
Suggestion, take a timing light and put it on the coil wire, with the engine running apply vacuum to the advance unit. If the light continues to flash, then you may have an alignment issue with the reluctor.

If it quits flashing as the vacuum is applied, then it is in the pickup coil leads.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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