EFI For Dad's 400

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EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
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I know I have a thread going that has been discussing EFI, but that thread is really for the E4OD and the EFI bit has been along for the ride since they are controlled by the same computer.  However, if anyone is ever to find this info then they may not do so in an E4OD thread.  And, threads are cheap - unless they come from Saville Row.  

Anyway, today was a watershed day for EFI'ing Dad's engine.  First, Ray has the harnesses, coil, EEC-V computer, etc from the 1996 2wd F150 w/a 5.0L all packaged up and is sending it my way.  We went back and forth on some things, like the coil, but discovered at the last minute that the one for the '96 is different than the ones I have for the 460's, so needed the later one to fit the harness.

And, today we ordered the Trick Flow intake manifolds - plural as there is a lower and an upper.  The lower is specific to the Cleveland engines, but the upper fits lowers for both the Cleveland and Windsors.  And, to be specific, we ordered the TFS-516B0114, which is the natural aluminum version for a 75mm throttle body.  That's because I talked with Harold Miller at Trick Flow and he said that would be a very good fit for my engine, heads, etc.  But, he didn't think the unit for a 90mm throttle body would be good as we are targeting low RPM torque and not horsepower.

However, you may have caught the "we ordered".  That's because Tim actually ordered the parts and is having them shipped to his shop.  He's making adaptors to mate Holly's EFI upper for the LS1 to Cleveland lowers, and wants to match it up to the Trick Flow EFI lower.  Here's a pic of the LS1 upper mated to a tunnel ram on a Cleveland, and you can see his 3D-printed adaptor, in brown, that mates the upper to the lower:



But Harold, Tim, and I agree that the factory-style EFI lower will give much more low-end torque than the tunnel ram given the long runners on the factory-style unit, so that's the way I'm going.  And, the Holley upper interferes with the distributor and I'm not ready to go coil-on-plug, so will go with the Trick Flow upper and lower.  Here's a pic of them:




However, in the truck the upper needs to turn 180 degrees and point toward the driver's side.  Fortunately they are symmetrical and it can be put on that way.  That then begs the question of "will it fit".  So, I've been trying to find the dimensions of the parts, to no avail.  But, when Tim called and was ready to order I took that as the impetus needed and called Trick Flow.  Fortunately they had this drawing, although not ready-to-hand they did get it to me pretty quickly.

With some scaling I was able to find the center point and then used Big Blue as a model.  Measuring from the air cleaner stud on the Edelbrock I located an inlet air tube that Jim sent me, and positioned it.  Here's where it would go, but you have to use your imagination a bit to "see" the manifolds and the throttle body.




Given that I realized it will fit, and pulled the trigger.  I'm not sure when Tim is supposed to see the parts, but he's crashing getting ready for a show and I think he's wanting to show this adaptor as well.  So, we should see pics soon.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

PetesPonies
Th intake looks a lot like a typical 5.0 HP setup. But having it mate to  Cleveland head is pretty cool!
Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yes, the intake started life as a stock replacement for the 302 and 351W. Only recently did they come out with the lower for the Cleveland. And with that you can basically bolt together MAF SEFI for the Cleveland and M-block engines. Or, maybe I should include “wire together” as the Bullnose trucks don’t have the provisions for placing the computer where the later trucks did, so lengthening wires will be necessary.

And, speaking of computer placement, Bill and I were talking about boots or grommets through which to pass the harness when placing the computer under the driver’s seat. Why not use the right-angle connectors the factory used?  I have the ~4” diameter hole in the floor with a plate over it. Remove the plate and cut a hole in it to accept the connector and associated boot. If I remember correctly it was the interior connector on the ‘90 that fit into the firewall, so attach it to the plate, coat the plates edges with sealer, and put it back on. Slide under and attach the engine-side connector to that one.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Time for an update here.  On Thanksgiving I got to spend some time with my brother and his older son, both of whom like the plan to EFI Dad's truck.  And that appears to be especially true of his son, who is an excellent mechanic.  He's finding it hard to find anyone that can work on carbs, and agrees that it is only going to get harder as time goes on.  So, he fully supports my plan to make it effectively a 1996 F150 w/a 5.0L and E4OD.

As for the intakes, Tim says they are on their way to his shop, and he will take pics soon.  Plus, he has ordered the spacers and will mock it up and take pictures of that as well.

And, I've been doing some thinking, searching, and looking to see how I want to route the intake plumbing.  I looked yesterday at how Ford ran it for the EFI'd 5.0's in the 90's, and while I could probably do that, I'm not impressed with the size of the cold-air inlet.  So I then looked at the two 460 air cleaner boxes I have and discovered that the tops can be put on backwards, which means the inlet could be plumbed to the opening in the radiator support.

But, in both the 5.0L and the 460's Ford used a double throttle body and two tubes going to the air box.  However, the Trick Flow manifold uses a single throttle body, so if I'm to a two-tube box I'll have to find a Y.  But, I've read that Ford used them on several of the trucks, so that shouldn't be too hard.

Thoughts?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

85lebaront2
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If you are going MAF, they have one large hose, the big enough MAF will probably be 90mm and would only need a single hose to the throttle body. The dual hose from my throttle body goes to a y and from there to a single large hose to the MAF. I will get you a picture tomorrow.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Good point  I'll have a 75mm throttle body, and that would go to a single MAF  Ok, a picture would help.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Time for a couple of updates.  First, I got the shipment from Ray today.  Thanks, Ray!!!  It has two EEC-V ECU's, one for an E4OD and one for a 4R100.  And the engine harness, and power distribution block, and on and on and on.....  Now I have most of what is needed to put MAF SEFI on Dad's truck.  




Second, Tim posted on Facebook a few pics of my Trick Flow lower plenum mocked up with the Holley upper:







Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

1986F150Six
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Somehow, the word "unique" comes to mind!
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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

grumpin
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Nice!
Dane
1986 F250HD SC XLT Lariat 4x4 460 C6-Sold
1992 Bronco XLT 4x4 351W E4OD
1998 GMC Sierra SLE K1500 350 4L60E
Arizona
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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Remember, guys, that Tim is just using my lower plenum to create an adaptor to the Holley upper. But he also has my Truck Flow upper, which is what I'll use. So, what you are seeing isnt what I'll have.

Hopefully Tim will post pics of my upper and lower together so we will see the real thing.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

NotEnoughTrucks
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Enjoy the box of snakes!
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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Thanks, Ray!
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

NotEnoughTrucks
Gary and I have been having an email discussion that probably belongs out here.

I'm going to cut and paste it here.


Ray

I was thinking that given the idea that you are mounting the ECM under the seat, it may make sense to duplicate the harness with appropriate lengths of wire and you could do that using pretty much any EECV harness. I think I have another one around here somewhere that I was modifying into standalone configuration much like that write up I sent earlier. Since the engine end will be on a 400, which will require some reconfiguration from a Windsor engine, possibly may make more sense?

Gary

 Well, subsequent to my email my new-found friend Mark/Dyn Blin did go to the salvage in Sonoma and got the '96 CA 460 SEFI harness, MAF sensor and air box, power distribution box, and OBD-II connector.  So, I'll use that for Big Blue's 460 and the stuff from you for Dad's 400 and will have two 1996 setups, both with OBD-II.  👍
 
However, he probably had to cut the OBD-II connector off with a bit of wiring on it as it surely was integrated into the snake/harness in the dash, so I'll have to lengthen those wires.
 
And, the EEC-V ECU was already gone and the connector to it cut off.  But, as you said, I was going to have to lengthen the wires anyway, so what you suggested is what I'm planning to do - get another connector with as much wire as I can and graft in the right color wires to put Big Blue's computer where I want it.  And, I'm wondering why I wouldn't put it in the same spot as on Dad's - under the seat.  It is unused space and makes getting to the computer much easier.  The only issue is in getting a water-tight seal on the wires coming through the floor. so I'm still pondering that one.

Ray

I have heard criticism of Ford's placement of the ECU in the 87 to 96 trucks in that the location is the first thing to get wet (if you are off roading and anticipate deep water crossing). That sort of use is not everyone's cup of tea, but it is worth considering. Given that, I can sure relate to your idea of mounting it under the seat. One possibility I am considering in my project is to relocate the ECU to the upper cowl area like the 97 and up trucks, or the Ranger. The Ranger uses a neat tray that can be scavenged from a parts truck to hold the ECU and mount it to the firewall.

Gary

As for the location, I've been wondering about it getting wet under the seat.  And, I do expect to have water crossings, so maybe under the seat isn't the best choice, at least for Big Blue.  I wonder about under the dash pad.  I've been planning to put an alarm system there on Dad's truck, but there may well be enough room there for the ECU.  And, if I'm lengthening wires......

What'cha think?  And, why aren't we having this conversation on the forum where others could comment?  🤔
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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Ray - Thanks for doing that.  

All - Please chime in on your thoughts.  What is the best location for the ECU?  Can I get it sealed under the seat?  Time to brainstorm.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

85lebaront2
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Ford EECs are not sealed, at least not the older ones. On Dad's, I wouldn't be super concerned, I don't anticipate that one being much of an off-road vehicle ever, other than parking lots and shows. Big Blue, if you are worried about overlanding, the stock 1985.5-1986 location is up beside the steering column and since you are going to have to build a harness anyway it would solve a few things.
(a) OBD-II port, mount it near the EEC.
(b) Relays, power and fuel pump, again, in the 1985.5-1986 location, just use a dual socket Bosch pattern instead of the early relays.
(c) Engine to EEC/Chassis connection, the 1985.5-1986 trucks have an oval hole in the firewall (seen here) that could be used and a 42 pin engine harness connector and bracket from a 94-96 E-series used.

(d) Ignition module would still have to be located somewhere on it's heatsink, the Taurus one is in the cowl inlet area since it is a sealed unit and I have an extra heatsink for one.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - Good thoughts.  But, let me ask a few questions:

1. Where beside the steering column did the EEC go?  Would it be best to find an 85.5/86 5.0L and get the ECU, assuming it is still there, the connector, the mounting tray, and as much harness as is possible?  I need the connector and harness anyway.

2. You would change out the fuel pump relay?  I was planning to use the stock one and leave the whole original system in place but have the ECU monitor it.  After all, I did a bunch of wiring to get it in service, so why not use it.  No?

3. Tell me more about the 42 pin engine harness connector and bracket from a 94-96 E-series?


Thanks!

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

85lebaront2
Administrator
The 1985.5-86 EEC will not work, the bracket will as the EEC cases are the same size externally, just different connectors.

EEC locations, 1982-84? under the driver's seat
1985-86 right side of the steering column between the radio and cruise control amplifier
1987-1991 recess in the driver's side air box (huck)
1992-96/7 next to driver's side air box behind the column support casting.

location with a TwEECer inserted into the J2 port

Your fuel pump relay might work ok, on EFI the relay coil is powered by the PCM power relay, the EEC grounds it to run and monitors the output from it. As long as you can wire those in you will be OK. The reason I suggested mounting it where the 1986 one sits is it is protected inside the cab.

On the later (pre mod motor) E-series there is a square 42 pin connector in the center underhood that the engine wiring other than the alternator connects to, it is mounted on a metal bracket. Other sources for the connector and bracket, Explorer, Mountaineer, Taurus, Sable that I know right off. Ford used these on a lot of cars. The reason for suggesting an E-series, if you can get that and the engine side of the harness you should have pretty much what you need.

For the EEC plug (C1027 in the 1996 EVTM) If you stick with a truck one, possibly even an E-series, the wire colors should match. Cars are different colors on some circuits.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - I don't know what I was thinking, but I should have remembered that the 1985.5/86 ECU won't work as it is EEC-IV.  Duh!  

And thinks for the run-down on where the normally sit.  Is the pic of Darth?  And where are we looking?

On the fuel pump relay, is there any reason to have the ECU pull it in?  Why not just let the 1985 factory system pull it in and then wire the ECU's monitoring pin to it tell it that the relay "picked"?

And, I think I now understand on the van harness.  Thanks.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

85lebaront2
Administrator
That was Darth when I was going to use an EEC-IV and the TwEECer is one of the ways you "adjust" them.

On the FPR, I am not sure doing that would necessarily be a good idea, the EEC commands the relay then looks for the response of the relay closing. It might continually set a code for the pump relay.

On the van harness, the normal routing is to the front of the van near the 5.0 and 5.8L throttle body area. Since you are going to have to modify the harness anyway, turning it around so the connection is near the firewall. The one concern will be making sure it won't hit the EGR tube where it comes up over the valve cover area.

The EGR tube has an insulated cover when installed.

I don't have a picture showing the relationship to the oval harness hole.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Dad's 400

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Good point on the FPR - if it is already on before the computer tells it to then it may get its knickers in a twist.  So, it needs to control the FPR.  Got it.  

But, the EGR tube shouldn't be a problem as I don't plan to run EGR.  Didn't you say that can be disabled?

And, while we are talking about disabling, can the transmission code be disabled?  In other words, can I use just any ECU with a manual transmission?  (This is for Big Blue, not Dad's truck, but is part of my learning.)
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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