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EFI For Big Blue

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85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

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Gary. I know the fuel lines changed in 1994 along with the pump modules, the 1994 ones use a pigtail on the module that plugs into the harness. 1996 should be the same and the EVTM will reflect that. On the lines, if you need it I can pull up the 1996 and I also have 1993-1994 F-series manuals, the problem is they only will run in a 32 bit version of Windows so I have to restart the computer in a 32 bit Windows 10 environment.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Big Blue

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Crazy how one change induces so many others.

Much as I like that big old reliable frame mounted HP pump, the dual function reservoir becomes a problem. I have never had one fail, but it would seem they used the last bit of unobtanium to build them.

So, on to the later tanks with the fuel delivery modules. Two problems here, the cross fueling issue and gauge compatibility.

It's my understanding that the check valves in the TSB were to correct a deficiency in the early FDM's. Ford has discontinued this part and new FDM's are equipped with a revised shuttle valve that solves the problem. If you are using new FDM's, you should not need the external valves. Not all trucks exhibited the problem, so not all trucks got the recall.

Using an Arduino to reverse the fuel gauge may be effective, but I think it could be done with a relatively simple linear circuit using a transistor for a current sink and a few other discrete components to bias properly. Used to do interface stuff like that all the time back in the 20th century.

I think we all want to preserve as much of the bullnose flavour as possible in our trucks, but there also is the possibility of aftermarket gauges. Personally, I detest ammeters and would change my gauge to a voltmeter. If I am changing one gauge, possibly I may consider a second? Now I am wondering if bricknose gauge movement could be installed in a bullnose cluster?

My fertile mind is now pondering these possibilities. Got cold weather out here to keep me indoors and I think I have a bullnose cluster on hand to experiment with. Perhaps I just need to clean out the fertilizer in my head!

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

In reply to this post by 85lebaront2

Bill - You should be able to start 32-bit apps in a different mode. Right click on the icon and click Troubleshoot Compatibility.

Anyway, the page below from your EVTM (mine is said to be "in the mail") shows a harness from C205, which is at the firewall, to C441 which is at the tank. Also, there's a note on that page that the sending unit resistance is 22.5 ohms empty to 145 ohms full - which is different than the temp sending unit. But that's not a problem with the Arduino idea, it just changes the equation.

So, do the '94 and later models require a different tank? And what is the difference in fuel lines?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

In reply to this post by NotEnoughTrucks

Yes, one change has a huge knock-on effect. And there were many such changes.

On the interface, it doesn't have to be all that accurate. I suggested the Arduino 'cause I can see how to make it work. Just do some math and come up with the guestimated current and voltage for Full and Empty on a Bullnose combo. Do other math and come up with the voltage the Arduino will see at Full and Empty using the later sender. Then write an equation that maps one to the other, using some scaling factors that can be adjusted.

But if you can do it easier, great!

As for the newer FDM's, will the fit in the tanks?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Ok, first, I have tried it, these will only run in a 32 bit OS. Fuel lines, yes they are different, push lock connectors that require a release tool. On the pump modules front tank is C440, rear tank is C441. I will see what I have, I do have the front fuel lines off the F450 here.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

This post was updated on .

Bill - Hold off looking for a bit. I think we have a winner. The FDM off of Huck's side tank fits the 38 gallon rear tank that I have perfectly, although the connections are backwards. However, that means that the rear FDM from Huck will fit the big tank, and its connections are reversed. And, I can use the front/side tank that's on Big Blue with a new FDM, use Huck's side tank with a new FDM, or buy a whole tank/FDM assembly. And all of those parts are available! Plus, I have the necessary fuel lines.

Here's Huck's rear tank and FDM:

Here's Huck's front FDM in the 38 gallon rear tank - connections are reversed from Huck's rear tank:

And, Huck's front/side tank and correct FDM:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Gary, I printed out a bunch of fuel system information from the 1993, 1994 and 1996 Ford service manuals. As near as I can determine the push lock connections replaced the slip on nylon lines with the plastic "hairpin" starting in 1992, in 1994 the fuel pump module was changed from 4 pins on top with a large curved plastic plug with 3 retainers (used as far back as 1983 with the hot fuel handling package) to a module mounted pigtail with a 4 pin plug on the end, this was used through the end of production on the OBS trucks. Apparently with the change, either the extra check valve was incorporated in the module or the internals were modified to where it wasn't needed.

You asked earlier something regarding the over 8500 lb notes, this is the point at which some emission and safety requirements change. The evaporative system on an >8500 lb vehicle has openings to the atmosphere, where the <8500 vehicles do not, >8500 vehicles even in 1996 did not have air bags, and the F450 Jim stripped did not have ABS, the wiring in the dash is there, but the connector goes to a dummy socket to keep it in place.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Bill - I assume the connectors shown below are slip on nylon lines with the plastic "hairpin". Right?

Anyway, with the exception of two of those connectors that appear to have gotten too close to the cutting torch that cut Huck in half, I have a complete set of fuel lines. I'll just have to replace those two connectors as well as figure out what to do about the vent lines. As it turns out, while Huck has a GVWR of 8600# he did have the evap canisters.

Having said that, I have some question about what appears to be a filter in the line, so if you could post or send me the diagrams of the 1990 fuel system that might be a big help.

As for the 4-pin connector, that's one of the beauties of this approach - the harness on Big Blue will plug into the FDM's. So it looks like the post-'86 and pre-'94 systems are the way to go, and 1990 appears to be the sweet spot.

Here's one of the connectors - a good one:

And here's one that flew too close to the sun:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Yes those are the ones. Was the burned one a straight or right angle one? I should have spares from my kit (If you are going to be doing them for Dad's you might want to invest in one). As for a diagram of the 1990, I can look, but not promise anything. I don't think I took pictures of it laid out, and did the extension work on the truck so there was no question on length.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Here are the pictures I took earlier of the 1995 front fuel lines from Jim:

I think blue is supply and gray is return.

Closeup of gray spring lock connector.

Closeup of blue spring lock connector.

Closeup of gray push lock connector.

Closeup of blue push lock connector.

And one more picture suitably labeled.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Bill - You've got a tank just like mine! Wait! It IS mine!

I wondered if that was the recall valve. There's one on both of the FDM's.

And, thanks for the pics. That helps me understand what the other connectors look like. And, by the way, I think both burned connectors are/were straight. But I may have to buy the kit since I'm doing two trucks - eventually.

I spent quite a while today drawing up the 1996 fuel system wiring as well as the 1985 fuel system wiring. I'm not ready to post that work yet, but I can tell you that it is amazing how simple the 1996 system is and how complex the 1985 system is. I'm just gobsmacked at the difference. WOW!

I want to be able to see what I'm going to do, what I'm taking out, and how I'm going to interconnect things. That's why I'm drawing the two systems up, and hope that work will be useful on both Big Blue and Dad's truck, as well as others that follow in my footsteps.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Gary, the 1990 up system really does away with the over engineered 1985.5-1989 system. If you were to use the early low pressure in-tank pumps, even with a selector valve (would need to be 6 port), you would still need some sort of reservoir for the high pressure pump so it wouldn't starve on braking, steep grades etc. You could probably use some sort of moderate pressure container like an old GM VIR tank and have a tee for the return, supply into it and a dip tube to near the bottom for the high pressure (Bosch is what Ford used) pump. The 6 port valve would solve the selection portion and it would work just like the early Ford EFI systems did. It would only need to handle about 10 psi to be safe.

The 1990 up just has two tees in the lines, one for supply and one for return, everything else is done in the pump modules.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

That is excellent documentation. Thanks! I'll have to look at my EEC-IV book to see if it has any further info on this subject.

As for the 85.5-89 system, I'm not sure it is "over engineered". It looks cobbled together to me. Here's a run-down of the parts:

1985.5-89: Has a fuel pump cutoff relay, a tank selector relay, oil pressure switch, inertia switch,
fuel tank selector switch, fuel tank selector valve, a resistance wire, and two in-tank pump/sender units.

1990+: Has a fuel pump relay, PCM, inertia switch, fuel tank selector switch, and two in-tank pump/sender units.

But the wiring diagram makes the difference look even more dramatic. I can't wait to get that finished and share it.

By the way, the 1985.5+ system uses a relay to power the pumps, while the 1990+ system uses the tank selector switch w/o a relay. See any problems?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

The FPR is behind the left side equipment from 1987-1991, from 1992-97 it is in the PDC, look at the 1996 EVTM. In the page you posted it is on the left side and is labeled "Fuel Pump Relay".

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Ok, my bad. I said it poorly. The 1985.5-89 setup has the tank selector switch controlling a relay, which then powers the pump. But the 1996 system has a fuel pressure relay in the PDC, and that feeds the tank selector switch - which then powers the pump directly. IOW, no relay between the tank selector switch and the pump in '96.

Just wondering if the Bullnose tank selector switch is up to that.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary, I think you are mixing some of the 460 fuel handling components with the EFI setup.

The tank selector handles the power directly to the in tank pumps. No relay. The EFI fuel pump relay provides power to the inertia switch, which is then distributed to the frame mounted pump and the tank switch common. The contact side of the tank switch selects either the front or rear in tank pump.

No oil pressure switch, no post tank switch relays.

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Ray - Let me get the schematic done and posted and then I think we will find we are in complete agreement. Right now the drawings are done for both versions, but the 85.5-6 is so poorly laid out that you can't make heads or tails of it. But I will work on it as soon as I finish this second cup of Joe.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

This post was updated on .

Ok, as promised, here are my versions of the 1985.5-86 and 1996, and probably later, fuel system wiring diagrams. They don't, yet, have the wire colors and other information, but I hope you can see the complexity of the 1985.5-86 system and the simplicity of the 1996 system. (EDIT: They now have the wire colors and pinouts.)

And, by the way, I put them up on a hidden test page on the website to see how easy they would be to read there. Please take a look at let me know how easy they are to read for you there.

And, if you spot any errors or areas for improvement, PLEASE let me know. These need to be spot-on accurate so I (we?) can use them for wiring.

Also, from this you can see what I was saying about the tank selector switch powering the pumps directly in the 1996 version, but doing so via a relay in the 1985.5-86 version.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

And, for your viewing pleasure (really so I could find them) I added a page to the website to house these diagrams: Fuel Systems/Fuel System Wiring. I included the relevant EVTM pages as well as a way to "download" my schematics - but it really just opens them in a new window in your browser. However, in my case it brings it up close and personal, so is much easier to see.

Now to figure out what needs to change in the wiring to incorporate the '96 stuff into Big Blue.......

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

You might also want to add the 1986 stuff as it has a slightly different system and add the EFI pump system also so those with the 1985.5-1986 5.0L engines can find their information. Nicely done though sir!

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

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EFI For Big Blue

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1985.5-89: Has a fuel pump cutoff relay, a tank selector relay, oil pressure switch, inertia switch, fuel tank selector switch, fuel tank selector valve, a resistance wire, and two in-tank pump/sender units.

1990+: Has a fuel pump relay, PCM, inertia switch, fuel tank selector switch, and two in-tank pump/sender units.

Re: EFI For Big Blue

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1985.5-89: Has a fuel pump cutoff relay, a tank selector relay, oil pressure switch, inertia switch,
fuel tank selector switch, fuel tank selector valve, a resistance wire, and two in-tank pump/sender units.