EFI For Big Blue

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

85lebaront2
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Ray, Gary said it, much the same reason I stayed with a Ford EEC-V system. I can carry a junkyard EEC-V box with the correct hardware code and reflash it to my current tune in maybe 15 mins, it will actually take longer to swap the box than get it programmed. I can carry a pre-flashed spare with me on a long trip and at worst case can find a 1996/7 EEC for a 351 W/E4OD in a junkyard and reflash it.

Aftermarket, call the source, tell them what you have and maybe you might have something in 2-3 days, more likely a week or more. I would not want to be up in WV at my son's or Texas at my other son's and have to sit and wait on parts.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Another reason I like the factory system is that it is true port injection.  But many of the aftermarket systems are just replacements for a carb and you wind up having the traditional imbalance between cylinders due to distribution problems in the intake manifold.

Anyway, Core Tuning got back with me today and said "The wideband I would recommend is the Dynocom DC AFM.  My response was "I'm confused about the AFR meter.  I thought you guys liked Innovate, and I was assuming you'd suggest something like the MTX-L Plus.  What's better about the Dynocom?"

Anyone know anything about them?  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In looking at the documentation on those two AFR meters I find this on calibration:

Innovate: Calibration Schedule - Normally aspirated (daily driver)
- Calibrate before installation of new sensor
- Calibrate new sensor again after 3 month of use
- Thereafter calibrate once a year or every 20,000 miles, whichever comes first

Dynocom: The following are some timing guidelines for when to perform a calibration procedure:
- The first time before a new sensor is used.
- For every 3000 ft. change in altitude.
- For race/off road engines, every tuning session.
- For wild street performance engines once every week of use.
- For mild street performance engines every month of use.

It is worrying that the Dynocom is to be calibrated 4 times as often, meaning every 3 months vs annually for the Innovate.

On top of that, the Innovate's analog output that will go to the data logger says that 0V = 7.35 AFR and
5V = 22.39 AFR.  But the Dynocom says an output of 0 VDC means 9.00:1 AFR (gasoline) and an output of 5 VDC means 16.00:1 AFR.

On top of that, the Innovate is ~$220 and the Dynocom is ~$355.   So.......   Thoughts?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

85lebaront2
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Gary, I bought my Innovate used from a fellow who had used it in tuning his Mustang. I did have to replace the sensor about a year later and it can either be ordered from Innovate, or, since it is a standard Bosch wideband, from a source like RockAuto by Bosch PN. On the output, the interface into BE for data logging was included with my package (along with a TwEECer which I no longer have) and does very well as I have it at the H where the factory single O2 sensor went so it reads the combined stream. Mixture control is the dual sensors, one on each bank on the pipes just below the manifold flanges.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
That's exactly where I've been planning to put my wide-band sensor - the factory position where the two sides come together.  And then put the factory sensors upstream of that.

But either Adam or Ben suggested that it go in one stream or the other as one of them will be leaner than the other and you don't get a true reading at the crossover.  But, why wouldn't you get a good average reading there?  Aren't you really shooting for an average that is close to 14.4 to then let the computer "trim" it to perfection?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

85lebaront2
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Gary, everything I have read on the use of the wideband says it should ideally monitor the whole exhaust stream. One of the issues with many of the early computer systems was the O2 sensor only monitoring one bank of the engine, which in theory is fine because an FBC feeds two cylinders from each barrel as does a TBI. The early bank fired systems were the same way. What caused problems was the fact that the second bank was assumed to be running the same. We all know what that word gets you. This was the reason Ford moved the O2 sensors on V8 trucks to the H from the back of the right exhaust manifold in 1987.

You now have a situation where a problem (leaking gasket, bad plug, injector issue either lean or rich) will now affect the other 7 to some extent as it is seeing the "average" mixture. Once engines were changed from either TBI or bank fired into sequential, it became feasible and needed to go to bank sensors where the ECA can, in it's programming, say the #5 cyl is a bit lean and increase the pulse width on #5 cyl only. This is where the fuel trim portion of the OBD-II system comes in, it allows "tweaking" of individual cylinders to correct errors. It can still be fooled by a leaking exhaust manifold gasket since under light load (cruise) air is actually drawn in and leans the stream to where the computer will increase fuel on the cyl with the gasket leak.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - That's my understanding as well.  Which is why my plan is still to put the sensor in the factory cross-over.

And, the rest of that is why I felt like going to anything short of MAF/SEFI wasn't worth it.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Time for an update on Big Blue's EFI quest.  Not a lot to tell, but:

Core Tuning: I haven't yet purchased the software & hardware from them with which to modify the EEC-IV ECU.  We have it down to the right package, but there's a debate going on between Adam and Ben with regard to what wide-band AFR meter I should have.  It has almost been a month since their conflicting recommendations came in, so I think I'll have to check back in to see what I should do.  

Cam: I'm not impressed with the power that Big Blue's 460 puts out, and have been attributing it to the cam.  I put together a spreadsheet to compare and contrast cams, and got really confused.  With so many variables and wildly-varying claims by the manufactures it is mind-boggling.

Then I thought I'd work with Lunati to see what they recommend, and discovered that there are several required fields in their recommendation-request form that I simply do not know.  At that I turned to an independent party and emailed Scott Johnston, aka The Mad Porter. he said:

Given the poor flow characteristics of the 85 cylinder heads and a whole bunch of unknowns about the actual build it is no wonder that the combination is so lazy. ... Most EFI trucks generate as noted in the last email about 12 to 13 mpg unloaded. A carbureted truck that gets 11.2 mpg is nothing to be complaining about.

Then the discussion turned to cams.  I know he thinks the Edelbrock cam is "poo", so I asked him what he thought I should have:

If you are building what is essentially a 93+ EFI engine then our standard crate engine EFI cam is appropriate. Top the guides a bit to ensure seal to retainer clearance with comp 926 springs.  207 / 219 on a 113 +4 or 5 depending on compression ratio, piston choice, altitude and or deck height.

So I told him that once I get the engine torn down and determine the pistons used as well as the deck height, and therefore the compression ratio, I'll get back with him and we will finalize the cam.

Compression Ratio: Speaking of the probable compression ratio, I had been assuming that it has quite a bit since it requires 91 octane to keep from pinging, and even then I have to pull the vacuum advance or it'll ping when pulling a heavy trailer.  But, I now think that what I have is a distributor set up for EGR and yet I'm not running EGR.  I say that because it fits both the experienced pinging as well as the fact that Vernon's engine builder didn't know what he was doing.  So, I'm sure he slapped the non-EGR intake on w/o regard to the changes needed in the timing.  So the spark is coming in way too soon, and that probably has something to do with the spots showing up on the spark plugs.

Bill - How hard is it going to be to create a timing curve in the ECU that works w/o EGR?


Heads: Huck, the 1990 F250, came with 1993+ F3 heads.  From my reading those are very good heads, and while they could be improved with porting they flow well for low-end torque, which is what I'm looking for.  So I'm taking them to Eric Weingartner tomorrow.  Eric no longer ports cast iron, but he will go through the heads completely.  And, I'll ask him to install the Comp 926 springs that Scott says I'll need.  Plus, I want to get his take on cams.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

85lebaront2
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Gary, there are various tables in the spark control for the running conditions. There is not, from what I remember, a direct correlation between manifold vacuum and advance like you have in a conventional system. Since the MAF control does not measure the manifold vacuum it uses an alogrithm to develop an "inferred" value.

On the heads, I should have probably gotten with Scotty AKA "the mad porter" for exhaust side recommendations on mine as that is still the weak area.

You posted the stock HP and torque ratings for the 351M and 400 the other day, the 400's torque peak didn't really surprise me, that 3.98" stroke helps a lot and Ford usually tried for torque in their larger engines, the old MEL 430 comes to mind. I think the 1958 430 was 375 HP @ 4600 and 490 ft-lbs @ 3100.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

1986F150Six
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85lebaront2 wrote
You posted the stock HP and torque ratings for the 351M and 400 the other day, the 400's torque peak didn't really surprise me, that 3.98" stroke helps a lot and Ford usually tried for torque in their larger engines, the old MEL 430 comes to mind. I think the 1958 430 was 375 HP @ 4600 and 490 ft-lbs @ 3100.
Hmmm! Sounds like my 4.9L!!!

Sorry, Bill and Gary, for the momentary "highjack" of the thread.
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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
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In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
Bill - I guess I have a whole lot to learn about the computers.  Gonna be a steep learning curve, and I'll need help.  

As for horsepower info, here's what I find in the 1983 dealer's fact book for a couple of the engines.  And this provides a glimpse of why I like those books.  Puts an end to lots of arguments about what HP and torque the engines had.

But, it raises lots and LOTS of questions.  Like, why does the power of the 300 Six vary depending on what axle ratio you have?  Or, why does a CA-spec 460 have more torque and at a lower RPM than a 49-state 460?

And, it also makes my idea of creating a table much, much more difficult as there isn't a single rating for any of the engines.  


300 Six:





460:


Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

1986F150Six
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Gary, look at the RPM level for maximum torque regarding the 300 six [1400, 1600 & 2000]... low. On my truck, 1600 equates to 57.6 mph.
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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yep.  But look at the rest of the gas-powered engines for 1983.  Note that there was a version of the 351W that was rated at 2 more ft-lbs at 600 RPM less than the other one.  Yes, it was down 8 HP, but it was the only 351W offered in CA in the pickups or Bronco.

302 2V:





351W 2V:


Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

1986F150Six
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To me, the charts for the 300 six and the 351W look believable. It is as though each listed combination was tested and the outputs varied as one might expect from different engines.

The 302 and 460 charts look like the numbers were simply copied???
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Re: EFI For Big Blue

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary, on the engine ratings from 1983, first you would probably need to look at the emission parts list, break it down to PNs of everything that could affect the power curve then the specs on them, like carb jetting/metering rod and distributor advance curve. On the 460, it was a "oh shit, we need it back" deal for Ford so it may just have been a quick copy type deal.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I now have the 1982 Dealer Facts Book and the 1983 Dealer Facts Book on the website.  You can see the power info on the Power Trains tab on each.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Well, it has been a long time since I updated this thread.  And while I don't have a lot to report, I do have some - yesterday I picked up the heads from Weingartner Racing.  Eric went through them and replaced many of the valves, did a 5-angle valve job, added new guides and seals, and checked the spring pressures and heights.

Speaking of the springs, he said that he got the correct spring pressures w/o shims, and that they are perfect for the lift that the Performer cam has - but not any more.

Today I ran a tap through ~50 holes on the heads to ensure they are clean and ready to go.  And, to check that he got the stripped ones repaired.  He did, but at one point I was quite concerned since my 3/8-16 tap slipped right into one of the exhaust bolt holes.  Turns out that someone tapped that one 7/16" at some point, but it is good as well.

These are F3TE 6090-JA heads, which are the final iteration of 460 heads.  And, they are said to be fairly good as they are a closed chamber head so you can get decent quench if the deck height is correct.  I have no clue what pistons are in Big Blue nor what the deck height is, but we shall see.  Anyway, they have fairly large valves (2.10/1.68") and look pretty good:




Here's a shot of an intake port:




And here's an exhaust port.  Note that there's no thermactor bump, just a nice straight path for the gases.




So, once I get a bit more done on Dad's truck I'm in a position to start on Big Blue.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Time for another update on this quest as I just ordered the Core Tuning kit and the Innovate wide-band.

I had a good, 45-minute call with Adam of Core Tuning.  And we worked through what I'm doing as well as what I need.  On their end he recommended this package:

Direct Flash Package 

1) Binary Editor w/Dongle
2) Includes All Supported Strategies
3) Pro Direct Flash Cable
4) OBDII License
5) Plus $20 Shipping (USPS)
Covers Lower 48 States

If later I decide I want to change parameters as I drive I can add the Quarterhorse cable for $250.  But he doesn't think I'll need it.

As for the wide-band AFR meter, he recommended the Innovate MTX-L, and since they don't sell it I ordered it from Summit.

Plus I need a serial-to-USB converter, preferably one based on the Prolific chip, in order to interface the Innovate to my computer.  So I ordered this one from Amazon.

The next step is to get my head around the software, and Adam strongly encouraged me to call him and he would remote-in to my computer and walk me through it.  And, he suggested that I send him pics of the ECU's I have so he can make sure I have what I need, which I'll do in a bit.

Anyway, I'm getting the next project lined up.  

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

85lebaront2
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Sounds very good sir, Adam is excellent at walking you through. If you need it for "learning" I can ship you my bench flash setup, or send you the information you need to build your own.

I am still in the "learning" mode on Chrysler SBECs, the first version, pre-air bag as Chrysler changed the steering columns in 1992 to use a completely different speed control interface.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EFI For Big Blue

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - I don't think I need a bench flash setup as I have this one:  

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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