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EFI For Big Blue

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85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Gary, pictures of Darth's air filter and washer/reservoir probably will not help you. Suggestion, since you have the second battery on Big Blue and it occupies the normal fluid reservoir location like a Diesel model maybe you can get some ideas from the location portion of the 1996 EVTM. If you scan the underhood portions so you can blow them up it might be what you need. The Powerstroke air filter is huge and it mounts behind the left battery. I do not remember where the radiator overflow sits, but the washer reservoir I believe sits on the right side near the middle. I would start by putting the inlet duct for the air filter in place and use that to locate the air box mount. Then see where the other stuff will fall based on that. If there was a dual battery option in 1996 then one of the underhood location pictures should show it.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Good thinking, Bill. I'll check your EVTM.

As for locating, what I was planning to do was to measure off of Huck's fender and see where it was supposed to go and mock it up there, although I'll probably have to adapt it to fit the contours of the fender. Then see if the 2nd battery will go in. If so, then the PDC should go in as the space for it will be open. (The firewall didn't move so the master cylinder is in the same spot, and there's nothing else big behind the air box but the cruise control.)

That leaves the washer/coolant bottle for last, and I can probably fit it in somewhere. After all, the underhood area is the same size between all of these trucks, so somehow it'll fit on a Bullnose if it did on others. I hope.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Bill - Your 1996 EVTM only shows two batteries for the diesels, and then they relo the coolant/washer bottle to the passenger's side, like you said. So, I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there.

But, on another subject, I've been mapping out how I'm going to integrate the power distribution box into Big Blue, and it looks like there is a good chance I can eliminate Big Blue's fuse links and use the fuses in the box. But, that'll come later as today I studied the fuel pump relay situation. I've included some scans of the 1985 & 1996 EVTM's showing the relevant pages, but here are my observations and thoughts.

However, I'd like your thoughts as I may be making it to hard or missing something.

My plan is to use 1985.5+ 5.0L EFI high-pressure pump and the associated tank selector valve/switch, as shown on Page 104 below. It appears that both the 5.0 and 7.5 use a similar tank selector switch, but I'll have to do some re-wiring. I wonder if I should get the tank harness from an 85.5+ 5.0L truck to make this easier?

The 1996 power distribution box houses the fuel pump relay, so I'll get rid of the stand-alone FPR on Big Blue and use the one from the '96 since the PCM is wired to that one to turn it on and monitor its output.

The inertia switch is in the power circuit to the FPR's output in the 85's, but is after the FPR on the 96 version, meaning it is between the FPR and the selector switch. So I'll have to rewire that.

The '96 system doesn't use the oil pressure switch, so I can do away with that circuit.

I need to draw this out! Looking at 5 pages across two EVTM's has me confused, and I need to see it on one sheet of paper.

Here's the 1985 5.0L wiring:

And here's the 1985 7.5L wiring, but not including the tank selector switch:

Here's the 1985 7.5L tank selector switch wiring:

Here's the 1996 FPR wiring - as far as the inertia switch:

Last, here's the 1996 wiring for the inertia switch, tank selector switch, and fuel pumps:

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Big Blue

This post was updated on .

Gary,

Fuel tank switching is accomplished with that dual function reservoir in the EFI trucks.

Electrically, the switch, meaning the switch on the dash is similar, but the 7.5 uses an electrically operated valve and the EFI trucks switch on the front or rear in tank lift pumps which operate the valves in the dual function reservoir by hydraulic means.

There also were two strategies with fuel pumps. 85 to 90 used lift pumps in the tank with about 8 psi output. This pressure switched the supply and return lines between the two tanks via the dual function reservoir which fed the frame mounted booster pump which was used to provide fuel rail pressure which was regulated by a bleed off type regulator with the return fuel sent back to the originating tank again through the dual function reservoir. That frame mounted pump is capable of up to 100 psi pressure, but is reportedly not an effective lift pump.

The second strategy used from 1991 till 96/97 used high pressure in tank pumps with the dual function reservoir handling the high pressure and feeding it directly to the fuel rail. This arrangement often has reports of fuel cross feeding between the tanks as the return line configuration often leaks fuel back to both tanks.

I don't think there would be any problem using an electric valve to switch tanks before the earlier frame mounted HP pump and it may be a good idea as the dual function reservoir seems to be difficult to service, but you still may need in tank lift pumps.

On the pumps and the tanks, there are 3 different sizes of pump/sender openings and the fuel gauge senders work opposite resistance, (scalewise) between the 85/86 versions and the 87 and later versions. The 85/86 tanks have the smallest openings, comparable with the carbureted trucks. The 87 to 90 tanks with the low pressure lift pumps use a slightly larger hole for the sender/pump and the 91 and up tanks with the high pressure fuel delivery modules use the largest hole.

The dash switch is similar in that it is a DPDT arrangement, but the 7.5 wires the switch as a polarity reverser which is applied to the electric fuel tank valve. Gauge switching is handled by the valve. The EFI truck uses the separate poles of the switch to select fuel pumps and switch the gauges. I think the choice of tank wiring would be driven by the choice of fuel tank switching methods.

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

You are essentially correct, I was also suggesting he use the 1985.5-1989 system on Big Blue as it would be easier and he apparently already has the correct in-tank pumps rather then the centrifugal pumps the 460 hot fuel handling package used. Ford went to in-tank high pressure pumps on the 1990 F-series and Bronco. I discovered that when I stripped the 1990 F250 parts truck I bought.

On the tank holes, the difference I found between the 1986 hot fuel handling tank and the 1990 high pressure tank was not the diameter, but the location of the aligning tabs. I mounted the 1990 mid-chassis tank on Darth and put my good low pressure pump in so I could run the truck before I switched over to the EFI system.

On the switch, depending on the exact year on the hot fuel handling package, there could be a tank selector relay, 1986-87 did not use it, 1983-85 did for the most part. The system can be a nightmare to troubleshoot without a wiring diagram due to the changes as it evolved. The system I had on Darth used the tank selector valve (a huge motorized 6 port piece) to switch both pump power and gauge senders. The 1990 up system is a double pole double throw switch, one side is for fuel pump power, the other for gauge senders. You are correct in that than tank selector switch was a polarity reversing switch, but I have a feeling it was the same switch as there was a short adapter harness between the dash harness and the switch probably to change the wire functions. BTW, it doesn't show in the 1986 EVTM, go figure.

Looking at the 1985 EVTM, it shows a motorized tank selector valve for the EFI engine, hmm, sounds like that was the original plan, but didn't work real well in practice. Every 1985.5 - 1989 I have ever seen has the big black plastic reservoir/selector unit, even the single tank ones have a 4 port one so the high pressure pump won't starve for fuel.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Yikes! This is complicated.

I agree that the changeover was in 1990 for the high-pressure in-tank pump as Huck had them. And, the pump has some form of valve in it to allow the fuel to return as the fuel lines from each tank, both supply and return, were just connected via a wye. Very simple, and as I think about it that arrangement is becoming more and more attractive.

I have a post about it here, and you can see the size of that pump/valve combo. In fact, as described, it looks like it would be possible to replace the later sending unit with the Bullnose unit. But the downside is that later, after I'm gone, it'll be almost impossible to repair that system. Who would you turn to in order to get a new sending unit grafted onto a replacement pump?

Ray - What valve are you suggesting?

Bill - What are you saying about the 1985.5-6 system? Are you saying that they replaced the motorized valve with something else?

I'm really struggling with how to do this. I don't mine, too much, getting into some wiring changes as they'll be one time and I'll leave a good schematic. But I want people to be able to get parts for it, and we all know that pumps and sending units are almost a given to go out.

So, what's the best approach for maintainability? I'm still thinking that the 85.5-6 5.0L in-tank pumps and sending units would be best as you can and hopefully will be able to buy them off the shelf. But, what is the best approach for switching the input to the HP pump and getting the return back to the right tank?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Gary, on the 1985.5-1989 EFI systems, I have never seen anything except that automatic selector valve/reservoir unit. I suspect that when the 1985 EVTM was printed, EFI was in the works so it was included. Just like my Taurus, the electronic climate control was a mid year change (supposedly) mine was built Nov 1993 and has it. After they worked it out, the EVTM may have had an update sent to dealers, I have an 89 Chrysler manual with a bunch of stapled in pages.

Stick with the 1985.5-1989 system as designed. FWIW, Matt should outlive both of us and if you ask him nicely, Delaware isn't that far for him.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

That will make it easier since there's no electrical connection to the valve. And, I'll bet I can even figure out how to use the existing tank selection switch and wiring, and just add a drop for the high-pressure pump.

I'll trying drawing all of this up, perhaps during the game tomorrow, and see what it looks like.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

MotorsportXLT

Re: EFI For Big Blue

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Well Gary It looks like you’ve figured out what your gonna do for your air intake.... here’s another option.... I’ve heard lots of good things about 5 ology racing http://shop.fiveologyracing.com/FORD-F-SERIES-BIG-BLOCK-PERFORMANCE-INTAKE-FBB-FIPK.htm

Chris McGaugh
1982 F-150 XLS Flareside
1985 Bronco XLT "Lariat"
1986 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
1989 F-250HD XLT Lariat Super Cab
1994 F-150 XLT Lightning

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

Game, what game? I haven't watched the NFL since the Baltimore Colts left town in 1983.

The high pressure pump pigtail may be in that long harness I sent you, if it was off the neighbor's wrecked F150 supercab, if not it shouldn't be too hard to add. Diagram is in the 1986 EVTM.

On the 5ology kit, there was a young man on the 429/460 group on FB bought one of their kits and had a real nightmare getting it to work. Depending on the MAF they use, if it is the same design as the Ford ones, K&N filters will oil the sensor after a while and require cleaning it. I also am not a big fan of "hot air" intakes. That filter setup would require building a box around the element then ducting cold air to it. The factory system has a nice big duct from the left side behind the grille right to the filter box. Maybe for Dad's truck as a lot of things there are going to be custom made anyway.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Chris - Thanks for sharing that. I hadn't seen one of those. But, I'm with Bill - I don't like an oiled filter ahead of my MAF. I've not had problems with them as I've not run one, but have known people who have and they did have to clean the MAF.

Having said that, if I didn't have the factory setup I'd be very interested in an aftermarket air intake - even w/o the "cold" air intake that Bill mentioned. But I do have the rare factory unit, including the "cold air" intake, and will use it to get the coolest air I can in summer when the underhood temps soar with that 460 under there.

Bill - I'm not a big NFL fan, but we lived just out of Philly for 10 years and the opportunity to cheer on the Eagles can't be missed given their lack of good luck in the past. (Just like we did with the Cubbies after living in Chicago.)

Let me get this drawn up and see what I need to change in the way of wiring. Right now I'm not thinking there will be all that much.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Big Blue

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I'll agree with Bill that the best design would be as built for the 85/86.

Might be relevant to share my fuel tank story with my son's 86 Bronco a couple years back. He needed a new pump and tank. Spectra Premium seems to be the best source for this, so we ordered the parts in. Turns out there were two opening sizes and not a lot of explanation as to what was going on. F8C was the 2" opening and F8D was the 3 5/8" opening. Measured the old tank and found it was a 2" opening, so we ordered the F8C. Also ordered a fuel module SP2531H which is the complete pump and sender assembly. Turns out this product needed the 3 5/8" opening. No product available for the 2" opening except for a generic replacement pump SP1152 which needed to be installed on the original sender and outlet assembly. Also ordered a STR02 strainer as it would be required. Pump fit the original assembly just fine, but the strainer did not fit the pump. There was a generic strainer included with the pump hardware which did fit the pump, but was visibly different from the application. Several emails were exchanged with Spectra which did not produce any clear answers, but we ended up using the generic pump strainer and the assembly works well even to this day. Rebuilding the sender was a bit more complicated, but we managed to make it workable after scavenging parts from another tank.

Bottom line becomes parts availability. Clearly, exact replacements were not available. The best option would have been the F8D tank and the SP2531H fuel module, but that info was not clear. I mentioned the later FDM tanks as I have replaced these and the opening is even larger. Spectra does not offer a complete assembly for the Bronco, but it does offer complete tanks with pump and senders. I would expect the 92 and up tanks would offer the best long term parts availability, but the fuel lines become quite different because of the FDM's as opposed to the in tank lift pumps, dual function reservoir and frame mounted high pressure pump of the earlier models.

Link to the Spectra Premium catalog. http://ecat.spectrapremium.com/

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

While I think we are in agreement that the cleanest approach would be to build it as an 85.5/86 302, that doesn't look like it is a good solution from the parts availability point of view. As shown below, the part number for the reservoir/switching valve is F1TZ 9B263-B, and according to our friends on FTE, as of about a year and a half ago there weren't any available. However, with a bit of searching there seems to be one or two here or there. But that doesn't seem like a good approach for longevity.

I'm bummed. And, open to suggestions.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Ok, you do have a front tank from the huck correct? What happened to the tank(s) from the F450? did Jim keep those? The 1990 up fuel system uses no reservoir or selector valve, each pump module with attached gauge sender has built in check valves and if you can find a set of the recall check valves that attach to the supply side of the pump module then you will have whet you need to prevent cross fueling.

If you can find a set of 1987 up filler necks they are easier to fill through than the 1980-86 ones. I would just start prowling junk yards to see what you can find, then maybe order new parts based on that. This will also let you see what size openings are on the tanks on Big Blue. Now you know why I bought Big Ugly, it was everything I needed except the 35" extension for the fuel lines and harness.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

NotEnoughTrucks

Re: EFI For Big Blue

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I think the gauge sender issue alone is enough reason to stick with the 85/86 tanks.

All of the tanks 80 through 96 will fit in your truck and I think the 92 to 96 tanks would be the best bet for longevity if you can find the means to modify the senders so the fuel gauge does not read backwards.

There also is the issue of fuel line connectors. The earlier tanks used a type of hairpin clip to hold the connectors together, but the 92 and up trucks use those spring retainer clips.

I think there is a Dorman kit that could be used to make up custom fuel lines or adapters.

Sorry, I'm just full of good news today!

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Bill - I have both tanks from Huck, and one good pump/sending unit. And I have the fuel lines. But, there are no external check valves on them, so tell me more about those check valves. But, the sending units won't work at all with the Bullnose gauges. As Ray pointed out, the resistance range is backwards. No go.

Ray - I do believe I can put the Bullnose sender on the later pump. But that will be fiddly and not something I expect any of my offspring to be able to do. And, we all know that sending units and pumps are notoriously faulty these days.

I really don't want anything fiddly to maintain. So, I'm thinking about four options:

Valves: If I had 4 electrically-operated on/off valves, or two 2-way valves they could be driven by the tank selector switch and I could run the 85.5/86 in-tank and high-pressure pumps.

Later fuel gauge in a Bullnose cluster. Bullnose is 10 ohms full and 73 ohms empty, while the '96 temp gauge, and therefore probably the '87+ fuel gauges, are 74 ohms full and 9.7 ohms empty. Essentially backwards. Could maybe Rocketman modify the gauge?

Arduino: This is the one that I think has possibilities. I've asked my nephew if he could program an Arduino to run pulse-width modulation to effectively reverse things. I could pretty easily map the voltage that the Bullnose gauge "sees" at various points from Full to Empty and then a table could be created that, when averaged, gives those voltages. That way I can use the later pumps and sending units.

Thoughts?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Ok, the recall was in 1993 and covered 1990-1993 trucks with all gasoline engines. There are five, two of which are NHTS numbers, the other three being Ford numbers.

Here are some pictures of the tanks on Darth with the bed off check valves are circled:
Front tank

Rear tank

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

Ok, my technical advisor says using an Arduino to do this will be easy. And then I'll need to figure out what to do with all the other I/O pins and all the unused cycles.

Seriously, this is looking good. A one-time effort that can be used by other Bullnose owners to solve a problem in a clean way. And the wiring is much more simple.

And, Bill, I see the check valves. So, what do they solve? And where do I get them?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

85lebaront2

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

If you can look up the recall notices, it should give PNs, now whether you can still find them new is anyones guess. These were on Big Ugly when I bought him for parts.

Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

Gary Lewis

Re: EFI For Big Blue

Administrator

The TSB is now shown in TSB/Fuel Cross-Flow, and the parts are available from Amazon. But there's one part number for 1990 & 91, and another for 1992 & 93.

Will need to do some research as to how available the pumps are, but apparently things changed as of 1994, so I wonder if I should go with the later style pumps and bypass the TSB?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

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