EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

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EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

66gtk
My 83 F150 (302 V8 with AOD) has all the CA emissions stuff still on it and it's giving me fits.  I've been advised by my mechanic to get rid of it and install a new intake and carb.  My understanding is I'll also need a different distributor, some wiring and a Duraspark II box?  I'm sure there are many who have done this, so if there is a good list of what I need to put together as well as some good sources on where to find it without breaking the bank I would be appreciative.

I do have a new Edelbrock Performer RPM intake that's been sitting for years in my garage (never installed, but meant for another abandoned project).  My buddy has a Holley Avenger 570 as well as a Duraspark II module he will sell me.  Not sure if that intake and carb combo is ideal for my otherwise stock 302, but I may want to slowy build up/mod this engine over time in the future.  For now, I want it to run and work well without getting poor MPG compared to stock.

Photos shown are of my truck as of today.

Thanks!
Troy






'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
If you don't have to meet emissions testing then it is probably time to convert to DS-II.  And I think you have the right list:

Distributor: You can either go with a DS-II dizzy or a one-wire unit.  But either way it should be one with either an adjustable vacuum advance or one set up for use w/o EGR as the Performer RPM intake doesn't have provisions for EGR - assuming you use the one you have.  There's a discussion of one-wire advantages and disadvantages on the One-Wire tab here: Documentation/Ignition.

Ignition box: If you go with a DS-II distributor then you need a blue-grommet ignition box.  If so, I prefer a Motorcraft box.

Wiring: If going DS-II then you'll need the harness that plugs into the wiring coming from the cab.
 But those are hard to find used, so perhaps pick one up from Painless, although those aren't cheap.  But if you go one-wire you'll need a relay and you can make your own harness.

As for the intake manifold, you don't have to go with a 4bbl.  In fact, the 2150 you have would probably work, or you could pick up one that doesn't have the feedback function in it.

But if you want to go to a 4bbl then you can use the Performer RPM.  However it is biased toward high RPM instead of low RPM, which is not usually what trucks need.  On the other hand, the 570 CFM Holley isn't a bad choice.

Perhaps you should do the ignition conversion as well as remove the emissions stuff and then see if you want to upgrade to a 4bbl?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

66gtk
Thanks Gary.  Do I need to get a different COIL as well, or can I use the one I have now?

Troy
'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
No, I think the coil you have is fine - assuming it is the can style that I think I see just to the right of the distributor.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Heck Gary, it's been a long time since I've seen an intact heat stove for a thermally assisted choke.

This truck is a time machine.  

Looking at that harness I wonder if the only thing he needs is the elusive distributor plug?
Wire color doesn't matter much. The electrons don't care if the sheath is green or purple.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yes, it is a time machine.  A very complex one.  It is amazing to me what they were able to do with vacuum and simple switches and solenoids.  But all of those vacuum hoses are suspect by now and would have to be inspected if not replaced.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

LARIAT 85
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by 66gtk
I agree with Gary about Edlebrock Performer RPM intake.  The regular "Performer 289" would be a better choice for a truck.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2121


For a replacement carburetor, I think a much better option would be the Summit Racing 500cfm carburetor:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs


If you decide to go with the Edelbrock intake manifold and a 4-barrel carburetor, you are going to have to do something with your stock AOD TV rod.  It will not work with an aftermarket carburetor.  So you can add an aftermarket Lokar TV cable to the parts list:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lok-kd-2aodu/overview/



The simplest solution would be to find an older, non-emissions style Autolite 2100 carburetor (in the same size) to replace your stock Motorcraft 2150.  You can swap out the throttle shaft to retain the use of the AOD TV rod.
Lucille:  1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors:  Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain:  AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.



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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Rembrant
LARIAT 85 wrote
For a replacement carburetor, I think a much better option would be the Summit Racing 500cfm carburetor:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs
Are you running that carb on your 5.0?

I have it saved in my Summit cart. Thinking about swapping out my 600 CFM Holley for this carb in this winter. I have the Performer 289 intake installed now.
1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

LARIAT 85
No, but close.

I am running a Ford Autolite 4100.  This is essentially a 4-barrel version of the earlier Autolite 2100, which later became the Motorcraft 2150.  Mine was originally engineered to work on a 1965 Ford Mustang with the 289 engine.  The smaller size (480cfm) makes it the perfect match for a full-size truck with a 5.0/302 engine.

I specifically chose this carburetor because I liked the simplicity and reliability of the stock style Autolite 2100/Motorcraft 2150 carburetors that Ford used for over 20 years.  The annular discharge boosters atomize fuel almost as well as fuel injection, and Ford were the first ones to use them in these carburetors.  I also really wanted to use the stock style thermostatic "hot air" choke, which also works MUCH better than any aftermarket style fully-electric choke system.  My stock electric assist choke cap and dashpot solenoid bolted right up to it with no problems.  Even my stock fuel line fit with no modifications.  And, the throttle shaft from a Motorcraft 2150 can be swapped to the Autolite 4100 to retain the use of the stock AOD TV rod!

The only reason I don't recommend the Autolite 4100 is because they are getting hard to find unmolested, there are many different sizes and calibrations, and they are getting expensive.  The 480 cfm version was only found on the first generation Mustangs, and Mustang guys pay big money for these for their restorations today because they work so well.

The Summit Racing carburetor is a copy of the Holley 4010, which was in turn a copy of the Autolite 4100. Holley actually purchased the annular discharge booster design from Ford in the 1980s. They are now used on the Summit Racing carburetors as well.  When I originally replaced my stock Motorcraft 2150 carburetor, I actually ran a Holley Street Avenger carburetor (580cfm) for a couple of years.  It ran okay, but it wasn't near as good as the Autolite 4100 or even the stock Motorcraft 2150 my truck came with.  And it leaked within two years, as most Holley carburetors do.  The Autolite2100/4100 and Motorcraft 2150 (and the Summit Racing carburetor) don't have that problem because the gaskets are above fuel level.  The Summit Racing carburetor is as close as you can get to the original Autolite/Motorcraft carburetors, and you can buy them brand new.  

Capiche?
Lucille:  1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors:  Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain:  AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.



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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Rembrant
LARIAT 85 wrote
No, but close.

Capiche?
Yes sir, all good. I thought that's what you were running, but wasn't 100% sure.
I'm thinking about the Summit 500CFM carb myself this winter;).
1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

66gtk
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by LARIAT 85
Awesome feedback guys.  Thank you.  Is this the proper linkage setup for my 83 AOD TV rod?
'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

LARIAT 85
Yes, it is.  
Lucille:  1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors:  Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain:  AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.



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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

66gtk
This post was updated on .
Awesome -

I had a condition Thursday where the truck could not idle at all.  I had the carb rebuilt and now it runs good!  Still running on all the original CA EEC-III emissions and electronics.  Kind of crazy, if you ask me.  I suppose, for now, I'll keep it all installed until I can't make it work anymore.  It starts really easy, idles well and doesn't stink at all like a typical carbureted vehicle.  Still has original cat and exhaust - no leaks I could find yet.  80K miles on the odometer.  A photo from today's drive.





'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Now that it is running well I'd leave it.  And if you start having problems you should look for a cracked vacuum hose.  As you know, you have 4.3 miles of it under the hood, and all of it is OLD!  

By the way, that is a GREAT LOOKING truck!  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

66gtk
Thanks Gary - that's one of my winter projects.....go through and start replacing vacuum hoses.  I probably won't get to it, though.  My unheated garage get's VERY VERY cold in the winter up here in MN.  It's not even insulated so I can't heat it even if I try with portable heaters.
'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by 66gtk
BEAUTIFUL truck!  

When I said it was a time machine, I had no idea how right I was.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

85lebaront2
Administrator
I agree, it is a beautiful truck, and really is a time machine.

Those EEC-III systems, when in good order were pretty damn good, much better than some of the competitions systems.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

LARIAT 85
In reply to this post by 66gtk
That is a mighty fine looking old Ford!  

To answer the original question you asked in your title:  NO, it is *not* time to convert it.

Since you have a nice, original, unmolested truck, I would leave it completely stock.  The EEC-III was a really good system, and is obviously very reliable.  It will continue to be reliable and run great as long as you don't try to modify or delete anything.  You will gain very little by converting it to something else, and will stand to lose much more in the process.  Conversions are only for the ones who are not so lucky and get a hacked up truck with missing components.  

Congratulations on fixing it the right way!  
Lucille:  1985 Ford F150 XLT Lariat

*Colors:  Dark Canyon Red exterior, Canyon Red interior
*Engine: 5.0, CompCams 31-230-3, "Thumper" E7 heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Autolite 4100 carburetor, DuraSpark II ignition, Thorley Tri-Y headers, Flowmaster dual exhaust, H-pipe.
*Drivetrain:  AOD transmission, 3.55 gears, 2wd.



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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

66gtk
In reply to this post by 66gtk
OK folks...I've gotten good help and advice here and I want to revive this discussion.  A quick update to where we left off in the fall.  Shortly after having the carb rebuilt I had to put it away for the winter.  By shortly, I mean less than a week.  During that week the truck started acting up pretty much from day one - right after posting the update.  I'll explain the issue:

Intermittent off-idle and near idle stumbling:

- First, the good - starts up easily every time now.  Restarts easily - EFI like type easy.  Idles fine when cold or hot after starting.  Does not stink like a rich fuel issue or blow smoke.  Very clean burning system right now.  The first few off-idle accelerations from a stop are generally really good after a cold start.  Once warmed up, things become inconsistent.  Once cruising on highway or at steady load it seems to run fine.  Only when transitioning between certain loads does it have the intermittent "falling on it's ass" syndrome

- Now, back to the issue...  

There are 2 general subtypes of the issue, but I think they are both the same, which relate to very poor fuel delivery issues off-idle or near idle.  Gas is fresh and new fuel filters are in place in a couple locations and I will continue to monitor and change these as necessary.  

1. After stopped at a light or sign with really good idle performance the truck will stumble and stall if I don't modulate the throttle by blipping the accelerator a certain way.  It will also completely kill out in the middle of an intersection if I fail to revive it with my right foot.  Once it takes off, it will either pull away with good power and load or it will act as if it's not getting any fuel despite the throttle being applied and will not accelerate with any power.  If I reset the accelerator pedal I can sometimes get the truck to act much differently within a second.

This behavior is highly unpredictable and inconsistent.  I would say after driving about 100 miles so far the past 2 weeks it will do this 50 percent of the time.  

2. While cruising under load on HWY or on the boulevard if I decelerate by pulling foot from the throttle in a quick manner the engine will struggle and start bucking while nearly dying.  It will sometimes die as I roll into the full stop after doing this bucking (you can hear it) but it's not frequent.  It can do it while backing off throttle to prepare for an exit ramp.  Again, highly inconsistent and this #2 behavior is far more infrequent now than he 1st behavior described.

When truck has good constant throttle response and power it feels really good to me and the transmission shifts at proper shift points very well and dare I say even nice and smooth.  No slipping.  When the throttle response is eratic it seems like the truck fails to respond to throttle well, as if it's in a really high gear, even though it isn't necessarily so.  Kind of like when you miss a 2-3 shift in a standard transmission and hit 5th gear instead.  That's what the truck feels like - it's bogging bad when it behaves this way.  A moment later it's fine, and then it misbehaves again and then it's fine.... it's maddening.  These issues are all related to an acceleration or deceleration change demand.

My throttle is very stiff, too.  We have examined and adjusted the throttle cable as much as we could - no binding.  I have ordered a new throttle cable to try but have not installed it yet.  You can see in the photos above that it's factory - likely the original.

Thanks for following along - I know it's a lot to absorb.  My wrencher friend who works on this truck for me thinks it's related to the EEC trying/failing to do it's job but he honestly doesn't know.  We did play with adjusting the accelerator pump arm but didn't notice any improvement.  We followed the advice learned here and elsewhere to ensure the distributor and rotor are properly phased and we are running the correct goofy rotor and the correct goofy timing order that goes with it in respect to wiring the ignition wires to the distributor.  You will notice in the photo I shared earlier it was using the traditional rotor and firing order, which was wrong.  Strangely, the truck didn't behave any different either way.  Plugs, wires, rotor, cap all brand new.

Any suggestions before I pull out all the CA stuff?  Please keep in mind I'm not a mechanic so plain English is often required as well as step by step instructions / photos.  Thanks so much!!

Troy
'83 F150 XL Shortbox California
302 (EEC-III), AOD, 3.55 - stock original drivetrain
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Re: EEC III California Emissions - time to convert it?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Troy - Can you do us a favor and create a signature that tells us about the truck?  I went back to the email you sent this morning and I know it is an '83 CA f150 with a 302.  But the others won't.  The signature creation info is on the Bullnose Forum/Forum FAQ's page.

The problems you've described sound like a throttle position sensor issue.  If the ECA doesn't know where the throttle is it will cause all sorts of problems, and your issues seem to be associated with changing the throttle position.

The 1983 EVTM doesn't provide any testing info on the TPS, other than to say it "sends one of three signals to the ECA to indicate closed, partially open, or wide open throttle".  Then it says to "Read Section 29 of the Shop Manual."  But the only piece of the '83 shop manual that I have is the Engine section, and it ends at Section 28.

Maybe someone else has the '83 FSM?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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