Bullnose Enthusiasts Forum › Projects

Duraspark Conversion Fail

Classic

List

Threaded

49 messages Options

123

844rd

Duraspark Conversion Fail

Well I pulled all the EEC wires out, replaced the distributor and coil to DSII, motorcraft spark box and bought the Painless DSII wiring harness which is not as complete as I thought it would be. I found the 12V key on that went to the plug with the water and oil and a 4th wire that I don't know what it is. The 12V wire had 2 wires from the fire wall and fused into one before it got to the plug. I thought maybe the resistor wire but with the key on it has 12 volts so I used the resistor that came with Painless and wired it like on there directions. I changed the starter relay from the 3 point to a 4 point and hooked the wires per painless schematic but when I hit start the truck was turning over slow. Then when when I let off the key the starter kept going, I pulled the negative from the battery the checked the volts with the positive stilled hooked up and negative removed. So I'm getting 7 volts (with the volt meter on the negative side of the battery) on all 4 terminals of the starter relay and also on both sides of the Painless ballast resistor. So I disconnected the battery and called it quits. Hopefully there is enough pics someone can see where I went wrong.

<nabble_img src="20181220_1<nabble_img src="20181220_180946.jpg" border="0" style="float:left; margin:.4em;"/>

80003.jpg" border="0" style="float:left; margin:.4em;"/>

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Some more pics I meant to post

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

Gary Lewis

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Administrator

In reply to this post by 844rd

Wow! Where to start? If you have 7 volts from the negative battery terminal to the positive terminal on the starter relay with the negative cable off the battery then your battery is almost dead.

Now for the ballast resistor. You may have picked the wire with the resistor in it and if you did then you'll have a very low voltage going to the ignition module. You can't check for voltage across a resistor if there is no load on the resistor since it is only with a load that voltage drops. So, you might want to rethink which wire you use as you really shouldn't need the extra ballast resistor.

And, you really didn't need the 4-terminal solenoid. Look at Page 27 here (Electrical/EVTM/1985 EVTM/Start & Ignition Gasoline Engines). Except for engines with an electric fuel pump Ford only used a 3-terminal solenoid on DS-II ignitions. And I'm not sure how Painless told you to wire things, but I'd do it just like Ford did.

Can you post a pic of the Painful (

) wiring diagram?

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Thanks Gary, OK, so I will X the painless resistor and here the Painless pic.

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

Gary Lewis

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Administrator

Kevin - I've worked through the Painless wiring diagram and it is the same as the Ford diagram in the EVTM - with the exception of the external ballast resistor. So that'll be fine once you get the ballast resistor bit sorted out.

On that subject, you can turn the key on w/o hitting Start, and measure the voltage at the battery and at the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor. They should essentially be the same, although there will be a bit lower voltage at the resistor due to loss in the wiring. But if the voltage is something like 9 or 10 volts when the battery voltage is 12 volts then you picked the wire with the resistor in it.

However, just to make sure, if you have battery voltage on the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor, check the other side - it should be down to 8 volts or so. If it is also at battery voltage you don't have current flowing and this test isn't working.

Also, I said you apparently have another problem in the wiring as you had 7 volts at all 4 terminals on the solenoid. However, it is possible that your new solenoid welded itself closed, which would put battery voltage on all 4 terminals. That is known to happen with brand new solenoids these days - bad right out of the box. So, after you get your battery charged up I'd replace your solenoid with the original one. Yes, if it is a 3 terminal one you won't have a place for the wire on the other little terminal, but you can tape that wire up and not use it for a bit as it just tells the ignition module that you are in Start and the module is supposed to retard the timing a bit. However, you don't have to have that function. In fact, some modules don't have that built into them. So, for now just tape the wire and test with the old solenoid.

And, once you pull the new solenoid off you can put your meter in resistance/ohms mode and check. If the solenoid is welded closed you'll find connectivity from every terminal to all of the others.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

I have the charger on now and will remove the Painless resistor and brown wire. I will check the solenoid if it test ok I will try it. So the 2 wires in 1 from the ignition that was already there has 12 volts, that will go to the coil and module. The white wire from the module will go the the little start terminal on the solenoid then I should be ready to hit the start...

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

Gary Lewis

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Administrator

Yes.

On the two wires, I'm guessing that the two wires you are talking about are the ones I've circled. If so, then they are fed by the internal ballast resistor - if you have an ammeter.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Well I think I have it wired right. I removed the Painless resistor and unhooked the brown wire on the solenoid. What I did find is were the I was getting the 7 volts from, it's coming back through the brown wire from the coil?? So now I have 12 volts on the solenoid when I turn the key on but nothing on the starter side. I took off the negative battery cable, and put the volt meter on negative battery post and on the stater side and showing 11.2 volts??? So maybe the the starter is bad. The battery has 12.2 volts. So 7 volts with key on flowing through the coil on the wire I took off the solenoid and 11.2 volts on the starter side??? This is a new solenoid that tested good. Anyway I'm done till after Christmas. Thanks for all your help!

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

Gary Lewis

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Administrator

Two things. First, the brown wire should have ~7v on it when the key is on. That says the ballast resistor is doing its thing and dropping the voltage to the coil down.

But make sure that brown wire is to the rear of the two small terminals on the solenoid. That terminal gets battery voltage to it when the solenoid is pulled in to start the engine, and the temporary shot of 12v through it to the coil gives a higher voltage to the spark for starting. However, the coil nor the ignition module can handle that for long, so it is just for starting.

Second, I got confused with your testing on the solenoid. But, with the ground cable off of the battery the solenoid won't work. And, unless the solenoid is firmly attached to the fender and there's a good ground from the battery to the engine to the cab it still won't work.

I would test the solenoid by removing the cable going to the starter. Then I'd put my meter from the negative terminal of the battery to the now-empty rear large terminal of the solenoid. And I'd use a jumper wire to go from the battery's positive terminal, or the front large terminal on the solenoid which should be the same, to the front small terminal on the solenoid. That should bring the solenoid in, just as if you turned the key to Start, and you should see battery voltage on your meter.

If that works, then place the wire from the ignition switch, which should be a red/light blue, back on the solenoid's front small terminal and turn the ignition switch to Start. You should hear the solenoid close. If so, then replace the starter cable and see if the engine will fire.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Thank you Gary for the help!! At least I know the resistor is working

I have that brown wire taped so it stops at the coil. So now I will check the grounds and play with the solenoid again next week. Just frustrated that a simple wiring job is kicking my rear!🤔

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

PetesPonies

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Painless harnesses are many times, not. I do Mustang Restorations and Painless comes up a lot with swap and replacements of harnesses. I'm not impressed and I would never use one. But . . . it should work, right ? :) Let us know what you find next. It really is a simple circuit.

Pete's Ponies
Mustang RUSToration & Performance

1982 F100 Flareside
1983 Bronco

Gary Lewis

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Administrator

Kevin - You'll get there. Don't worry.

Pete - I agree that Painless isn't. We have this one listed in the Resources folder: American Autowire. But I've not used one so don't know if they are painful or not.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

UPDATE: Got it running!!!!! But wired up way different from the painless diagram. So coming off of the Ignition module they had the white wire going to the starter solenoid "S" with the key to start wire and a brown wire to the "I". Well no start. so pull the brown wire off still nothing except the key switch wire has 12 volts so I replace the solenoid and just hook up the original key to crank wire still got 12.4 volts when I turn the key but wont engage the starter. Now I get jumper cables, go from hot post of the battery to starter side and fires right up. So did I get 2 new bad solenoids or does it just not like the 4 point ones. Anyway I have ordered a Motorcraft SW1951C solenoid maybe that will solve the issue. On another note that white wire I took off of the solenoid that goes straight to the module I checked the voltage and it has 12 volts all the time with it just coming from the module? so I don't understand why they showed it going to the solenoid. The truck runs with nothing on the white wire side of the module?

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

Gary Lewis

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Administrator

Glad you got it running. And, you might have gotten two bad solenoids. I've heard that it happens.

As for the white wire, it is to tell the ignition module that the engine is being cranked and, therefore, needs a bit of retard to the timing. But you don't need that function. In fact, some modules don't even have it.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

That's good to know. I will leave if like it is. I've only drove it around the yard today and messed with the trimming. I'm somewhere around 14 deg. BTDC. Idles good but will try it on the hwy tomorrow and try to find the balance between good idle and no pinging. I'm sure I will need some more advice... Thanks

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

Ferdinand

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

In reply to this post by 844rd

Way to stick with it Kevin! I have always wondered about "Painless" wiring harnesses. But I am glad you are up and running.

My project is kicking my tail so others' success is keeping me motivated 😉

I have been kicking around the idea of a ready to run Distributor from MSD but I just bought 2 new DSII modules and a new factory replacement distributor so I'll keep the old tech for now. I had an '82 F150 and never had any issues with the modules.

Jamie Helmick
'85 Bronco 351W HO, C6, 4X4, Full rebuild @ 51k original miles (fire), Edelbrock air gap intake & 600 cfm carb. w/elec. choke. 4" RC lift w/35's. Check the Projects Page if you're interested.

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

I pondered that for a short time, looked at the Davis United all in one set up but it was an expenses unit and I worried if I had issues with it might be hard to finger out and get parts for. I like the DS2, easy to find parts that doesn't cost much. The only thing I would not do again is NOT get that Painless harness

. My local junk yard didn't have any, but if I could do it again, I would have kept looking for sure.

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

In reply to this post by Gary Lewis

I have a question on the tach wire..If I understand right, the plug from the fire wall is a two prong plug one green and one black. On the TFI set up there was one green wire coming from the coil and distributor. I understand the black wire on the plug was only used on V8's. Painless harness has a yellow wire that says goes to aftermarket tach so would I just tie the yellow into the green that goes into the firewall?

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

Gary Lewis

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Administrator

If the yellow Painless wire comes from the Tach terminal on the coil, then it does go to the dark green/yellow wire going to the firewall. And the black/light green wire is grounded to tell the tach that it is getting a signal from a V8. Otherwise it assumes it is a 6 cylinder engine.

Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

844rd

Re: Duraspark Conversion Fail

Yes the yellow wire goes straight to the coil horseshoe so I will hook that up. Currently I don't have a tach but I have a whole gauge cluster from eBay with a tack and trip odometer. I bought the blue LEDs you put in your truck, so I should be able to see it now. I do have a question on were I mounted the coil. I used the same bolt that the TFI was on but its right up against the plug wire boot. So should I move it to another location and would it make a difference if it is horizontal or vertical? AND on the TFI the plug gap is 44-46 will that be the same on the DS2?

Thanks for the help…

Kevin 84 F-150 300 i6 Manual 3 speed overdrive 2.47 rear end

123