Don's (Pebcak) 351 upgrade Project

If you look at my Belated Happy Father's Day post you'll see that my son wants to rebuild the engine with me.  We've got a start and some ideas.  But as usual, I was to research things before we go down a rabbit hole.

So here I go with a couple questions.

1. My son found THIS video of a f cam in a 351w.  Now he wants to put this in The Beast during the rebuild.

I asked a couple guys at work that do a lot of engine work and they said to not put that in for a daily driver.  That the f cam was something that they would use in their vehicles for the strip.  Then they started throwing stats and specs at me and I was lost..     I stopped them and told them to remember that I have no clue what I'm doing but am willing to learn.  So they slowed down and tried to explain it to me and they ended up losing me again.    So they broke it down in kindergarten terms so I could get it and told me if I wanted to keep it a daily and increase torque that I should look into something that is a 260 cam to put in.  Or at most, go with a 268 cam if I wanted to "rumble" sound but in their opinions it would be a waste of money and do nothing for the engine, driving, gas mileage with it.

So for number one, does this make sense to people here that know 351w and cams?

2. I'd like to replace my stock intake manifold when I rebuild.



I have an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor so I did some research and found THIS intake manifold that'll match my carb, sit higher on the engine and improve overall performance.

Is this overkill or is there something else comparable that'll work?

As a refresher, I'm not looking into making this a show truck or a drag truck.  MY (not my son's) overall goal is that I want it as a Daily Driver with the capability of having a little fun now and then.  If my son had 100% say (and a blank check) in this it would be a 600 hp beast with a turbo, suck premium gas like a fish with water.

Any suggestions, ideas or redirects are welcome as usual!!!

Don't pick a cam because it sounds cool.  Pick it for the RPM range where it is effective.  I'm not pushing Comp Cams, but their website explains things pretty well.

They have several series of cams for the 351W, but the one I'm familiar with is the Xtreme Energy series.  Their cams are listed by their duration, which is the spec that your friends were quoting.  And, each of the cams has the RPM range where the cam works best.  So, with that you can figure out what you want to do.

I installed their XE250H in a 351W and was very pleased.  They show the power range as 600 to 4800, and I can confirm that it ran very well.  Strong torque just off idle, and it ran very well!

As for the intake manifold, the 2181 is the one I'd pick.  But it is a non-EGR unit, so if you are going to run EGR you'll need the 3781.

With the cam, since my son got the heads refurbished, do I need to change the springs and lifters?  Or get a cam and new timing chain?

For the intake I'm assuming I had no EGR since that has to do with emissions right? When I got the truck all emissions was already taken off.

Sorry this is short.  At Whataburger and on my phone.  

It depends on the cam lift and the coil bind height of the springs used.
(also the spring pressure at base circle and full lift)

Don't be afraid to change springs if they won't work with your cam choice or have so much seat pressure you'll only get 1,200 miles before wiping the lobes or sinking the valves.

Building an engine for performance and economy is not throwing a jumble of parts at it.
The parts have to work in harmony.

.... it's like seasoning chili.
'but I like it hot' does not mean throw a bunch of ghost peppers in.
It means find the right *balance* of meat to fat, cumin, bay, salt, onion, whatever...

Pebcak wrote

If you look at my post you'll see that my son wants to rebuild the engine with me.  We've got a start and some ideas.  But as usual, I was to research things before we go down a rabbit hole.
I have an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor so I did some research and found THIS intake manifold that'll match my carb, sit higher on the engine and improve overall performance.

Is this overkill or is there something else comparable that'll work?

As a refresher, I'm not looking into making this a show truck or a drag truck.  MY (not my son's) overall goal is that I want it as a Daily Driver with the capability of having a little fun now and then.

I'm a 385 series guy, but you might look at some 'proven builds' on Windsor forums.
The Performer is essentially a stock manifold with a little better flowing runners.
Height is not really much.
Performance is not really that much

You might look at the RPM.
The Air Gap means no cold weather heated floor (poor warm-up)
The Weiand Stealth is like a Performer with more runner volume (in 385 at least) and you gain on top while losing a little signal strength on the bottom.

One thing I understand is Chili and Heat!  Now you're talking my language!  

I had a chance to look at this more once I got home.

So far I'm thinking of going with the XE250H cam.

For the timing should I go with the 2138 since it's a mid range set.  You know, kinda like Habenaro instead of Jalapeno or Ghost Peppers.  Something in the middle.  

Unfortunately you lost me with the "base circle" and "full lift" stuff.  . Since it's so late, I'll try to read up on this and educate myself tomorrow.

I don't want to go cheap on this and end up having to redo things later.  I just want to do this project right.

Pebcak wrote

With the cam, since my son got the heads refurbished, do I need to change the springs and lifters?  Or get a cam and new timing chain?

For the intake I'm assuming I had no EGR since that has to do with emissions right? When I got the truck all emissions was already taken off.

EGR is still there in your photo....
It's the spacer under the carb, and the reason a 'higher' intake is suggested, to make up for the 7/8(?) that you will lose without it.

ALWAYS use new lifters with a new cam.
In fact, if you are unsure, get a kit with cam lifters and springs from Summit, Jegs, Crane, Edelbrock, Comp, or another major brand.
You should probably get a new double roller timing set too. (when was the last time you changed it?)

Im glad I could make an analogy you relate to.

Sorry, I had to take an important phone call,,,,

Ok, while we can all relate to food:
A cam has egg shaped lobes.
The tip of the egg is the full lift of the cam.
The base circle is the round bottom, where the valve would be sitting on its seat.
Lift is the difference in radius.

The spring which closes the valve still has to hold the valve on its seat.
This is seat pressure, at installed height. (The distance between the spring seat, and the bottom of the retainer)

When the cam point has lifted the lifter, and the rocker is pushing the valve wide open, there needs to be room between the winds of the spring.
If the spring coils are touching (coil bind) before the cam reaches full lift you are going to bend pushrods (hopefully!)

Rocker arms also have different ratios. The fulcrum of the see-saw.
If one side is longer it raises farther from the ground....
By changing the pivot point you can -in essence- make the cam 'bigger' while every event stays proportional.

The lumpy cam idle your son likes comes from more overlap (How long both the intake and exhaust valve are open at the same time.) and wider lobes.

Closer lobe centers and wider lobes (think of hands on a clock, but eggs. Think of a duck egg instead of a chicken egg) are good for dragsters.
This allows the engine to bleed off some pressure at idle (that raspy, lumpy sound) while at higher rpms (shorter event time) the momentum of the intake charge just pushes into the cylinder instead of getting pushed back out.

Okay class, kindergarten is over for today...

Like I said, I have general knowledge, not much specific to Windsors.

Have you considered a 408?
Scat or Eagle cranks aren't too steep and "there's no replacement for displacement"

An extra 57 cubic inches,(16.25%) plus the increased compression it brings, will really wake that engine up without having to spin it to the moon.

Pebcak wrote

So they broke it down in kindergarten terms so I could get it and told me if I wanted to keep it a daily and increase torque that I should look into something that is a 260 cam to put in.  Or at most, go with a 268 cam if I wanted to "rumble" sound but in their opinions it would be a waste of money and do nothing...

Okay, I'm still up at 2:30 so I may as well keep blabbing.. (Gary? bla bla bla smiley? I know they have it over there in 'the old country')

250, 256 are a measure of the duration (in degrees) of valve opening -at 0.050" lift-

You'd look a a cam and think 'pretty simple' but before computer modeling, cam making was as much a dark art like alchemy, as it was a simple formula.

Lift, lobe center angle, duration, ramp profiles and cam timing relative to crank (keyway) advance or retard, are some but not all the factors that need to be considered.

Another Comp Cam guy here. Not a 351w mind you, but I went with a Comp Cam XE256H in my 302 build. It moves the power range to the 1000-5200 RPM. I bought the complete kit that came with everything, part number K31-234-3, or for a 351w it would be K35-234-3. I used my stock pushrods and stamped rockers.

I wanted some of that hotrod idle sound and feel, and the XE256H nailed it. My truck doesn't haul or tow anything, it's just strictly a cruiser. I had originally selected and purchased the XE250H, but the shop that built my engine pushed me towards the XE256H. Now that I have it, I wouldn't want anything any bigger, I can say that much. I find that Youtube videos don't transfer sound very well, but here she is in her partially finished glory...



For the intake I went with the Edelbrock Performer Non-EGR intake. As noted above it is the lowest end 4bbl intake, but I was switching from the stock 2bbl to a Holley 4bbl, so it was an upgrade for me. I did however install a 1" thick plastic intake spacer, same as the one linked below:

https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15491/10002/-1

The guy that built and dyno'd my engine suggested this, and I needed it anyway since I'm running an open air cleaner. And, even with a flat bottomed open air cleaner, I still had to use a spacer on top of the carb to get the air cleaner to clear the stock DSII distributor. Everything else lined up perfectly with this spacer...stock Ford throttle bracket and cable, etc. The engine builder also blocked off the exhaust crossover ports. I was indifferent to this, but he recommended it and my engine runs well this way.

Here she is on the dyno last year:

'Mornin Cory!       
East Coast Represent!      

That's some good Windsor specific advise.
I too like the Xtreme Energy line.  

Thanks for the sound clip.

I didn't know about drop air cleaners hitting the dizzy on a Windsor.
There's a lot of acreage on a big block!

Blocking the crossover helps some with charge cooling, but makes for a VERY sluggish beast in winter, unless you have a LOT of choke setting.
I wouldn't recommend it for a DD.

Do you know how advanced your cam is over stock?

Note what Cory said about a different part # for a 351 cam.

This has to do with firing order, and you could just swap plug wires around to make it work if you wanted to.

The Windsors are essentially the same, except the 351 has more stroke, deck height, and a wider intake manifold..

Pebcak wrote

For the timing should I go with the 2138 since it's a mid range set.

I would probably go with the Cloyes 3057.
A basic roller chain.

Unless you're going to spend time dynoing (and tearing down-reassembling) your truck you really don't need adjustability.
Advance is 'ground into' the cam.
Cloyes is a solid choice that will last for years and stretch your budget.
I have the 385 version in my truck.

Rollers have a bit of blower whine, vs the stock hyvo type chain.
But they don't eat the sprockets.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Blocking the crossover helps some with charge cooling, but makes for a VERY sluggish beast in winter, unless you have a LOT of choke setting.
I wouldn't recommend it for a DD.

Do you know how advanced your cam is over stock?

My truck is now only a summer cruiser, so cold winter starts were not much of a consideration. I will drive it in the cold, but only if the roads are dry, and if there's no salt on them. If it takes a little longer to warm up in this weather, I don't mind. (Side note, for what my truck lacks in air conditioning in the summer, it makes up for it in heating in the cold!).

As for the "built-in" advance in the Comp Cam XE line, I don't know specifically, but I seem to recall there being 4 degrees over stock. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the Comp Cam had 2 degrees built in, and the stock cam was 2 degrees retarded? Maybe it was only 2 degrees overall, and the Comp Cam was "zero". Not sure here...

Camshaft selection is annoying...lol. I drove myself close to the brink of insanity trying to pick one. There are a lot of options for the SBF. One thing is certain...if you go looking, you'll find a lot of people running the Comp Cam XE line, and with the trucks specifically you'll often see the XE250H, and with it a lot of happy customers. If there is a "safe" choice to make, I think that would have to be it. Since my truck is just something for novelty use, I did want a little bit of that rumble that the 5.0's are so well known for, and that was what drove my choice towards the XE256H. As I mentioned above, I had originally planned on the XE250H, but the engine builder pushed me towards the XE256H, and since I originally wanted this cam, it was an easy choice once I had a builder suggesting it. Keep in mind this builder specializes in performance engines, so that is where their bias is.

The thing I liked about the Edelbrock Performer intake was that everything fit right into place like my stock intake. My coil, throttle bracket, ground cable, temp sender, etc all went right back into place with stock hardware. It made for a clean and simple installation and assembly.

Here is a video of my engine and you can see where the air cleaner assembly is sitting on top of the distributor (and coil). This is with a 1" spacer under the carb and another 1/2" or 3/4" spacer on top of the carb. Mind you it is a larger air cleaner...14" I think.

Yeah, I think blocking the crossover is a no go for DD.
BUT you can use a restrictor in each side by drilling a hole in the plate.  *idea!

The 256 XE is really popular for good reasons.
If Pebcak likes his chili spicy it may be the best choice.

The slight rise of the RPM manifold  may help clearance.
It won't hurt bottom end much and it will breathe better on top.

IDK what he intends to use for an air cleaner.
With an Air Gap you might have to run a drop cleaner to keep from putting the stud into the hood.
But that's not for a DD.

"Straight up" refers to the crank keyway in a timing set.
Yes, it is affecting advance, but the cam grind is completely different from that.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

"Straight up" refers to the crank keyway in a timing set.
Yes, it is affecting advance, but the cam grind is completely different from that.

My bad. I remembered reading that when I was studying camshafts and timing and I thought that "straight-up" was referring to the cam being Zero degrees.

Don't forget that a bigger engine tends to make a cam "smaller".  In other words, the XE256H on a 351 will have less lope and a lower RPM range than on a 302.  And on a 408 it'll be even more mild.

Also, Don/Pebcak is in Texas, just north of Forth Worth.  So his "cold" isn't Cory's "cold".

If it was me, I'd call Comp and ask them what they recommend.  I say that because they have several different cam series for the 351W, as shown on this page under Hydraulic Flat Tappet.  

And, to top all that off Comp has the Thumpr cams, which aren't shown in that list.

Again, I'd call Comp and tell them what you are wanting to do, Don.  They'll ask all the right questions about vehicle, weight, usage, transmission, torque converter, gears, intake, exhaust, carburetion, compression ratio, etc.  And they'll sort through a very complex issue and give you a recommendation.

Okay 'Don'

Advice from the manufacturer or engine builder is almost always good!

Remember Gary that you can make up for a 'small' cam with rocker ratio.
(to the point of coil bind)

Edit: gear and tire choice make a big difference in how the truck will drive.