AFR Meter Reccommendations

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AFR Meter Reccommendations

Bruno2
I know I need to put an O2 sensor in to run one. Where on a dual set up is the question?

Which meter us a good one that is user friendly?
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Adam at Core Tuning told me that my AEM meter isn't a good one.  Don't remember what they recommend, but Bill has one of them.

As for a dual setup, he said to put the sensor in one bank or the other, but not in the combined stream.  One bank will run leaner and it will confuse things.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
I will look tomorrow and give you the information. To use it on duals, run an H pipe between the two sides (it also helps the flow) and put the sensor there. Strange, but maybe it is because I am controlling my mixture with two sensors one for each bank and have the wideband in the H right before where the catalytic converter would go.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
Mine is an Inovate unit, one of the older versions but (a) reads accurately (b) has logging capabilities and (c) integrates well into the tuning program I use, Binary Editor.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Gary Lewis
Administrator
That's the brand that Adam at Core Tuning recommended.  Said he has a really expensive AFR system and he's tested several brands of gauges.  AEM varies a lot in its reading, but the Innovate is accurate.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Bruno2
How about this one?

https://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-MTX-L-Wideband-Ratio/dp/B004MDT8MW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1520892008&sr=8-1&keywords=Innovate+AFR
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
Mine is an older unit, an LC-1 and LM-1 pair. The LM-1 communicates with BE for datalogging. I guess for a carbureted setup, the analog style display is better for on the fly reading as long as it can also store data, preferably road speed and engine rpm.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Bruno2
In reply to this post by Bruno2
Turns out this unit is loaded with one star reviews. 3 Pages of them on Amazon alone. Apparently this unit malfunctions and the manufacturer has no customer support. People get told to pound sand even within warranty terms.

Here is one page of the one star reviews:
https://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-MTX-L-Wideband-Ratio/product-reviews/B004MDT8MW/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar

They all say the same thing. One guy recommended Gary's AEM boasting it has lasted 3 yrs w/o an issue.
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Bruno2
This is an interesting read and worth the time IMO:

https://10carbest.com/best-wideband-gauges

On a set up like Jr or even the Bronco is range of  10:1 - 20:1 going to be adequate or do I need to spend the money and buy the unit that starts at 8:1 ?
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I don't think the 10:1 - 20:1 issue will be an issue.  If you get lower than 10:1 it'll probably show 10:1, and that is too rich anyway as you don't want anything richer than about 12:1 for full throttle runs.  But, Bill may disagree and I'll defer to him on that.

The AEM (30-4110) UEGO Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge is basically the one I have, although mines called Fail Safe so has another function that we won't use as it has to do with boost.  Mine has worked well and I plan to use it to tune both Big Blue and Dad's EEC-V systems.  However, my understanding of tuning those systems is that you get it in range for the open-loop time, but it then fine tunes that when it goes closed-loop.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
Ok, several items, first, I bought my wideband Innovate unit used, after about 2 years the Bosch sensor failed and was easily replaced with one ordered from Rock Auto. It is not the bells and whistles fancy meter, just a moderate sized box with a digital display and data logging capability. It also has a port for connecting to a computer for either live data or to download logs. For Gary's use it has to be able to integrate with the tuning software or it is essentially useless.

Second, max power on gasoline is at 12.5:1 AFR, the Core Tuning software can be set to go there at WOT in open loop, closed loop can be set over a range the regular O2 sensors run in. for gasoline that is 14.6:1, with the corn blend, it is a little different. I will get a picture of mine later, my sensor is in the H between the pipes where the factory single O2 sensor was located.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Bruno2
In reply to this post by Bruno2
I bought this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-30-0300-X-Series-Wideband-Gauge-AFR-O2-UEGO-Air-Fuel-Ratio-2-1-16-NEW-MODEL/172533722726?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I just couldnt make myself go with Innovate after what has been said about their customer service. Nobody should have 3 pages of 1 star reviews on a platform as big as Amazon. The "care" factor just isnt present. Anybody that cares about their business, customers and product line should have gotten in front of that a long time ago. Some other forums and automotive publications gave their products good reviews. However , AEM has good ones too. I guess only time will tell if I made a sound decision or not, but this model is noted to have the quickest register time.
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I think you'll be happy.  Having the concern about customer service running around in your mind isn't worth it, and the AEM gets good reviews.  Mine works fine.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
Ok, here is mine, the couple of times I have contacted Innovate I had no problems at all.







As you can see from the first AFR reading, 460s run lean during warm up, I could probably tweak it but it doesn't seem to be an issue. If the power to the EEC keep alive is interrupted then it will go way lean the first start.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I wouldn't have thought that 15:1 was very lean during warm up.  I'm assuming that "warm up" means open loop, and that during that time it is just running off the tables - right?  So, you could tweak the tables and dial it in if needed.

How much does that AFR vary due to temp?  I assume that the colder it gets the leaner it is.  Or, do the tables include temp?  What about atmospheric pressure?

Just thinking ahead.....
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
Gary, it had already started to settle in, but at the first readings cold it will be 16:1 and sometimes even leaner. The factory "tune" on the SD engines has them so lean on cold starts they are prone to stalling.

On the tables, yes, it monitors ACT, ECT, MAF signal for open loop running and if I take a quick glance at it while under load it will be dropping toward 12.5:1, moderate throttle, usually drop to 13:1. I can send you one or more datalogs I did for Adam, they export in Excel form and the columns have the parameters on them and I believe the Innovate output is one of them. Not everything is logged, only what is needed for the particular "test run".
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yes, please send the log - at your convenience.  I plan to buy the Core Tuning package in a few weeks so want to start thinking about that again.

But 16:1 is a bit lean, although if the engine doesn't mind I guess it isn't a problem.  I'd think that is on the verge of stalling with a cold engine, but if it works....

By the way, USPS didn't deliver the plenum yesterday.  But they did deliver the 1982 Facts Organizer Jonathan sent, so they did come by.
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
Accord to USPS, it is somewhere between Tulsa and Skiatook.
April 7, 2018, 4:49 am
Departed USPS Regional Facility
TULSA OK DISTRIBUTION CENTER  
Your item departed our USPS facility in TULSA OK DISTRIBUTION CENTER on April 7, 2018 at 4:49 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

85lebaront2
Data log was sent, have fun! At least I have it exporting in Excel.
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
Darth Vader 1986 F-350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator
Wife's 2011 Flex Limited
Daily Driver 1994 Taurus LX
Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413
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Re: AFR Meter Reccommendations

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Bill - Got the data log, thanks.  I have some questions but will ask them under separate cover.

As for the plenum, guess I'll ship yours in a different box.  




As for the plenum itself, you said it was stripped out, but apparently the USPS ran bolts in and then twisted them off.  

Seriously though, now I understand why you wanted another one.  When you said a bolt hole was stripped out I thought it would be cheaper to helicoil it than ship it two times.  But, getting those things out of aluminium wouldn't be easy.

I'm thinking I'll hacksaw the bulk of that part of the casting off, do a bit of milling, and then round the corners w/a flap wheel.  And, while I see what you mean about running a tap deeper and blocking the whole thing off with a plug in the back, I think I want to tap and plug the side hole as well just for to make it look better.

Thoughts?

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/soon-to-be ZF5/3.55's & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
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