AC Rebuilding Quesion?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
55 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
I am getting AC parts to get my F100 system working again.
I have a new condenser, used Sanden compressor (marked 85 F150), going to flush the evap., new dryer & orifice valve (blue I think) and not sure on hoses if new or used or combo of both?

So what oil do I add to the system PAG or Ester?
If PAG what flavor 46, 100 or 150?
How much oil with just a used compressor and the rest either new or flushed out?
When would the oil be added and where? Pull a vacuum and suck it in or pour it in a open hose before a vacuum is pulled?

And maybe the last question how much R134A would it take?
I know it should be weighed but if doing this all at home I would not have access to a scale so wing it with cans and gauges.
Then again I may get everything in place and if I cant get a vacuum pump may farm the charging out so would not really need to know then.

Thanks guys in advance
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

85lebaront2
Administrator
Ester, unless you are absolutely sure there is no petroleum base oil anywhere in the system.

On charging it, you want the low side high enough that you aren't short cycling the compressor, the upper line on the evaporator and the accumulator (tank) should be cold, ideally inlet and outlet to the evaporator should be close in temperature.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
85lebaront2 wrote
Ester, unless you are absolutely sure there is no petroleum base oil anywhere in the system.

On charging it, you want the low side high enough that you aren't short cycling the compressor, the upper line on the evaporator and the accumulator (tank) should be cold, ideally inlet and outlet to the evaporator should be close in temperature.
Ester it is as I don't know what oil is in the compressor and if I end up using some of the old hose it could have some on it also.

Would you know how much is needed with a new condenser, flushed evap and some that leaked out of the pump?

I did find it would take 2.5 to 3 can 12oz cans to charge the system that has been under a vacuum to check for leaks and remove any moisture.

I think right now the hardest part will be getting hoses that will work between the 2 systems.
Old hose don't fit the new pump, new hoses on order so will see if they fit when I get them.
Thanks
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

old55pete
In reply to this post by FuzzFace2
Dave, I will give you what I have gleaned from the A/C classes I have taken over the last 20 years or so. In some states you HAVE to recert for A/C every couple of years and cant buy more then 3, 12 oz cans of R134 at a time if you are not certed. Welcome to California drewling into AZ.

1 The the blue orface tube should be fine for your pickup. It had a white one from the factory but the blue will work better the R134

2 If you are going to use R134, you need to be using Pag 150 oil with green die in it as the die will show where leaks are. You can use Ester oil, but pag 150 is recomended by Sanden and most of the major compressor manufacters. We have been told for years that Ester oil when used with R134 sets up a chem reaction that eats the aluminum parts in the system over time. The older the system, the quicker the reaction.

3 According to the Ford service manual for an 86 F150 regular cab, It has a 3 pound system. In that case, you need to add 1 oz of pag 150 for every 2 lbs of freon so an ounce and a half should be fine. Add the oil after you vacum down the system or at the same time you add the freon through the low side port.

4 You need to change the pressure switch on the accumulater/ dryer to an R134 switch as the pressures run a little different then they do with R12. The NAPA part number for this switch is TEM 207887, you can cross that to what ever parts source you want to.

5 Once you have the oil and freon added( you may have to start the engine and turn on the A/C to get the third lb in). Once all of that is done, watch the guages as the comperssor cycles. On the low side, the compressor should come on at around 22 lbs and shut off around 45 lbs, on the high side the compressor should shut off around 250 to 300 and come on around 100 psi. Some where between 250 and 300 lbs on the high side, the engine fan should kick in and drop the pressure. If the fan DOES NOT come on and drop the preassure , shut the engine off and replace the fan clutch. It the pressure is too high it will cause damage to the system.

Dont take any of this as gosple, it is just what I have learned as a truck and heavy equipment machanic over the last 20 or so years. I am sure someone on on this site knows a better way and has more nolage then me as even I am still learning
Steve
86 Bronco, XLT, 5.0 EFI, EEC IV, AOD, IFS, limited slip front and rear, 3.08 gears, Tilt steering, factory AC
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
Thanks Steve for that information it all helps.
I went with Ester oil because that is what most said to use on a mixed (R12 / 134A) system.
I will have to re-read the post to see how much I need to add to the system.

Well ran into I hope a little problem.
My home made brackets fit the compressor and the motor side bracket so the compressor is bolted in place.
Next I figured lets put the belt on and this is where it turned bad
the crank has 3 belt grooves, P/S pump only has 1 groove, ALT only has 1 groove, water pump has 2 large and 1 small (air pump? don't have one) groove.

ALT uses the groove close to the motor on the crank & water pump and lines up great.
The P/S uses the outer groove on the crank and nothing else.
The center groove on the crank and the small one (close to the radiator) on the water pump are not used.

It looks like the water pump needs a larger groove where the small one is and the crank needs one added to the front of it for the AC belt to work.
So what pulleys do I need to get this to work?
I should add I am using the GM style PS pump I was told from a van.

On a better note I think I have all the hoses I need to have a sealed system.
1 of the new hoses I  bought I have no clue where it is used as 1 end looks to be NPT and no where on the system do I have that. I want to say it was the line from evap where the orifice valve goes to the condenser as I had to reuse my old one. So I am guessing the later evaps have a NPT where mine does not?

I should be able to use the 80/81 dryer as the hose does fit it but I needed to bend the dryer fitting a little so the hose would clear the hood. I do want to see if the 83/86 new dryer will fit the evap and if so then that hose will fit a lot better and no need to bend the dryer. But if the new dryer does not fit I now know I can get one to replace mine and be good to go.

Once I get the pulley / belt thing worked out I should be good I think.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
Up date on the dryer, The later 83-86 one will not fit the 80/81 evap.
The fitting between them don't match so I will have to return it and the hose that dose not fit anything and order the right dryer.

Once the belt issue is worked out I should be all set to vacuum & charge the system.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Two steps forward and one backward is still progress.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
Gary Lewis wrote
Two steps forward and one backward is still progress.  
Yep and I thought the hoses were going to be the PITA part
Wife is not happy I got to put more money into this.
When we picked up the compressor she asked then how much more?
Told her hoses, dryer, belt and to charge the system.

I am so close I can almost feel the cold air blowing ...... oh wait I was standing in front of the fan
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Don't get too close to that fan!  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
Gary Lewis wrote
Don't get too close to that fan!  
LOL it was the big floor fan in the garage I had pointing at me when working over the fender.

I found this picture
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.ford-trucks.com-vbulletin/843x500/screen_shot_2018_02_09_at_10_24_01_pm_383fb6c9dadb8ecacba20fd69e8978c2043c068a.png
and some other posts on that other forum shows that I may need a different water pump pulley.
The other thing is the PS pump is using the front crank pulley groove where it should be in the center one.

Now what may be a cause is I am using the GM type PS pump and the way the mounting bracket is mounted to the front of the timing cover may be an issue on moving it back.
So tomorrow I move the truck back to my garage and pull the compressor & PS pump to see if I can wove it back to use the center crank groove then see if the AC pump will line up.

But it looks like I will need a water pump pulley for AC.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
You do know we have a page on pulleys: Documentation/Engines/Pulleys?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
I will have to check it out.
I did see a post I thought on PS pulleys I did not think to look for water pump pulleys at that time.
Then again I was kind of burnt out from the heat and this issue
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I know the "burnt out" feeling.  I mowed and did the trimming yesterday, in spite of the heat warning.  I was toast.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
My grass needs cutting again but I am putting it off, it will be there what I am ready

Ok took the AC & PS pumps loose so I could play with the belts & pulleys.
 I also checked out the information on the pulleys and it looks like the crank pulley / balancer is the same for the 300 motors AC or not.

 But the water pump pulleys are different. It is hard to tell the size of each groove from the information but it list a few as 3 grooves and the 1 I have now is a 3 groove pulley.
 Thing is 2 (close to motor and next one out) are large dia. and the last one is smaller dia. think for the air pump on non-AC trucks. On AC truck the air pump runs off the ALT.

 I don't have an air pump and the ALT only has 1 groove to drive it.
 That small dia. groove is where the AC belt needs to run and being a different dia. than the other 2 with belts on them a belt or 2 would burn out running at different speeds.

 So I am on the look out for water pump pulley E0TZ 8509-B. Now also listed is a spacer E2TE-BA OR E0TZ 8546-A.
 I don't know where this spacer goes if after the pulley is on the pump I can deal with that to space the fan into the shroud some.

 As for the PS pump belt that is now running in the outer crank groove and needs to be in the center groove I think I can space it back some and still be a strong mount so that is what I will try and work on today.

Oh I can see I will have fun with the AC & PS belts. The new AC belt just makes it with the small dia. WP pulley so no way with the large one.
 The PS belt now went crank to PS pump and needs to go over the WP pulley so way to short and the new AC belt way to long.
 Nothing is easy with this truck
 Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
Ebay did not turn up anything on the pulley but did on the 2 inch spacer .......... for $90 NOS
Now I can sleep knowing the spacer is just a 2" deal.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

71_badmach
In reply to this post by old55pete
old55pete wrote
Dave, I will give you what I have gleaned from the A/C classes I have taken over the last 20 years or so. In some states you HAVE to recert for A/C every couple of years and cant buy more then 3, 12 oz cans of R134 at a time if you are not certed. Welcome to California drewling into AZ.

1 The the blue orface tube should be fine for your pickup. It had a white one from the factory but the blue will work better the R134

2 If you are going to use R134, you need to be using Pag 150 oil with green die in it as the die will show where leaks are. You can use Ester oil, but pag 150 is recomended by Sanden and most of the major compressor manufacters. We have been told for years that Ester oil when used with R134 sets up a chem reaction that eats the aluminum parts in the system over time. The older the system, the quicker the reaction.

3 According to the Ford service manual for an 86 F150 regular cab, It has a 3 pound system. In that case, you need to add 1 oz of pag 150 for every 2 lbs of freon so an ounce and a half should be fine. Add the oil after you vacum down the system or at the same time you add the freon through the low side port.

4 You need to change the pressure switch on the accumulater/ dryer to an R134 switch as the pressures run a little different then they do with R12. The NAPA part number for this switch is TEM 207887, you can cross that to what ever parts source you want to.

5 Once you have the oil and freon added( you may have to start the engine and turn on the A/C to get the third lb in). Once all of that is done, watch the guages as the comperssor cycles. On the low side, the compressor should come on at around 22 lbs and shut off around 45 lbs, on the high side the compressor should shut off around 250 to 300 and come on around 100 psi. Some where between 250 and 300 lbs on the high side, the engine fan should kick in and drop the pressure. If the fan DOES NOT come on and drop the preassure , shut the engine off and replace the fan clutch. It the pressure is too high it will cause damage to the system.

Dont take any of this as gosple, it is just what I have learned as a truck and heavy equipment machanic over the last 20 or so years. I am sure someone on on this site knows a better way and has more nolage then me as even I am still learning
Many thanks for this detail and the "nugget" about changing the pressure switch over for R134a.  And to the original poster, Dave, for posting on some of the aspects of this modification.  I haven't gotten as far in my build yet, but I went with a serpentine conversion system that has a "peanut" Sanden compressor setup that I will be plumbing in eventually.  

Hope you have had success in getting the pulleys sorted out.
Dave
85 F150 EFI 302
Ohio
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by FuzzFace2
That's 'spensive!

As for the pulley, unless it is in the original packaging the seller won't know the part number.  So they'll be listing it via ID # that's on it.  So for part # E0TZ 8509-B you would be looking for E2TE-BA.  Or, sometimes the manufacturer put the whole code on, so it might be E2TE 8509-BA.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by old55pete
Pete, you do not need to change the pressure switch, it is adjustable with a screwdriver. You need to make a short pair of male on one end, female on the other jumpers so you can remove the plug, connect the jumpers across from the switch to the plug then adjust the cutoff pressure for R134.

I did this on Darth and the 1990 Lincoln Town Car we owned. Matt and I drove it to an R134 conversion class and the fellow doing the class was so happy to have an R12 to R134 conversion to demonstrate on. Only recommendation was to replace the emergency relief valve with a high pressure cutoff switch.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
In reply to this post by 71_badmach
71_badmach wrote
old55pete wrote
Dave, I will give you what I have gleaned from the A/C classes I have taken over the last 20 years or so. In some states you HAVE to recert for A/C every couple of years and cant buy more then 3, 12 oz cans of R134 at a time if you are not certed. Welcome to California drewling into AZ.

1 The the blue orface tube should be fine for your pickup. It had a white one from the factory but the blue will work better the R134

2 If you are going to use R134, you need to be using Pag 150 oil with green die in it as the die will show where leaks are. You can use Ester oil, but pag 150 is recomended by Sanden and most of the major compressor manufacters. We have been told for years that Ester oil when used with R134 sets up a chem reaction that eats the aluminum parts in the system over time. The older the system, the quicker the reaction.

3 According to the Ford service manual for an 86 F150 regular cab, It has a 3 pound system. In that case, you need to add 1 oz of pag 150 for every 2 lbs of freon so an ounce and a half should be fine. Add the oil after you vacum down the system or at the same time you add the freon through the low side port.

4 You need to change the pressure switch on the accumulater/ dryer to an R134 switch as the pressures run a little different then they do with R12. The NAPA part number for this switch is TEM 207887, you can cross that to what ever parts source you want to.

5 Once you have the oil and freon added( you may have to start the engine and turn on the A/C to get the third lb in). Once all of that is done, watch the guages as the comperssor cycles. On the low side, the compressor should come on at around 22 lbs and shut off around 45 lbs, on the high side the compressor should shut off around 250 to 300 and come on around 100 psi. Some where between 250 and 300 lbs on the high side, the engine fan should kick in and drop the pressure. If the fan DOES NOT come on and drop the preassure , shut the engine off and replace the fan clutch. It the pressure is too high it will cause damage to the system.

Dont take any of this as gosple, it is just what I have learned as a truck and heavy equipment machanic over the last 20 or so years. I am sure someone on on this site knows a better way and has more nolage then me as even I am still learning
Many thanks for this detail and the "nugget" about changing the pressure switch over for R134a.  And to the original poster, Dave, for posting on some of the aspects of this modification.  I haven't gotten as far in my build yet, but I went with a serpentine conversion system that has a "peanut" Sanden compressor setup that I will be plumbing in eventually.  

Hope you have had success in getting the pulleys sorted out.
Dave, I don't think you will have any of the problems with the 302 as I do with the 300 and even less with that belt set up.
Did your truck have AC from the factory or something else?
Good luck with your build.
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AC Rebuilding Quesion?

FuzzFace2
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary Lewis wrote
That's 'spensive!

As for the pulley, unless it is in the original packaging the seller won't know the part number.  So they'll be listing it via ID # that's on it.  So for part # E0TZ 8509-B you would be looking for E2TE-BA.  Or, sometimes the manufacturer put the whole code on, so it might be E2TE 8509-BA.
Gary, thanks for the break down. I searched with a O and a 0 space and no space, think I even tried 8509, but did not think to try the E2TE-BA as I did not really know what that was.
Wish me luck as I will try every combo I can think of LOL
Thanks
Dave ----
Dave G.
81 F100 flare side 300 six / AA OD / NP435 / 2.75 gear
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1980-Ford-F100?page=1
81 F100 style side 300 six/SROD parts truck -RIP
http://cars.grantskingdom1.com/index.php/1981-Ford-F100
123