351W Starter Issues

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351W Starter Issues

Bruno2
My Son In Law is looking for a truck  . I ran across this one:







It looks super clean. I just dont know if it could be a major issue or something simple that takes a minute to track down?
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
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I haven't had much issue with starters.  I know Jim/ArdWrknTrk did on his 460.  But haven't heard of them on a 351W - with the exception of something on FB recently on one.

I wonder if they've left the shield out from between the tranny and engine.  But he said that it "needs to be repositioned, which suggests that it moves.

Dunno.

Where is it?  If you only had a trailer with good brakes and wiring you could go get it.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Bruno2
It's in Mustang,  OK.

He needs reliable transportation soon.  It is spooking me a little, but the problem just sounds easy to fix. I don't know if he is putting the wrong starter in or what.

Doesn't sound like the motor has ever been out of it.
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Bruno2




Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Bruno2
In reply to this post by Bruno2
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Bruno2
There are two starters - one for an auto and one for a manual.  And, there's a different starter for a 351M.

Mustang ain't far.  Nothing like Florida - almost exactly two years ago now.  Can that Dodge pull that much?  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Bruno2
Kind of makes me think it's a voltage problem somewhere.  Like it isnt grounding well or one of the components in the chain of command isnt functioning right.  Then again Vatozone had some real high profile issues with bad starter rebuilds.  However,  I don't know where he is buying them.
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Oh, so THAT'S why I got the text.  Ok, now I see.  One starter from NAPA and two from.... and the text ran out.

But, someone on here got three bad solenoids in a row - from two different stores.  It can happen.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

ArdWrknTrk
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In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
I'm kind of surprised.
Bruno says he doubts the engine's ever been out, yet the owner says the starter needs to be "repositioned" after three days use.

The starter *should* pilot in the spacer plate.
To get the plate off you would need to remove the flywheel/flexplate from the crank first.
And without the spacer the starter would need to be shimmed for depth.

Does it grind and not turn over?
Does it just spin freely?
I wonder how the bushing in the nose of the starter is faring after 3 days?
Mine would get destroyed because of the teeth camming out.

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
The last text I had last night he was still texting with the guy, so I didn't get a conclusion.  But the truck is just the other side of OKC, and he has a trailer that is in good shape - I know 'cause it went to Florida two years ago right now to get Big Blue.  So he may just do it.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Bruno2
Ok, I see now where Frank says it's just spinning.

1986 so it definitely isn't a 351M, Gary.

You'd think starter issues would be pretty simple.
I know from experience how frustrating it can be grasping at straws.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
No, it isn't an M, but that doesn't mean someone didn't sell him a starter for an M.  However, it isn't likely it happened three time, I'll admit.

Latest text from Brandon shows he's busy at work and can't go get that truck right now.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Do we know if the truck is automatic or manual?
And the starters purchased are correct for the application?

Aren't Windsor's the same as Lima's in that there are different throwouts?

If the truck is as good as it looks I hope Brandon can find the time to pick it up for his son in law.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
I don't know what the tranny is, but you are right - there are different starters for auto vs manuals on the Windsors.

He was pretty interested in it last night.  Unfortunately he has a job that must be done before it starts raining tonight, so can't do anything about the truck right now.  Perhaps he can over the weekend.

(He'd probably get that job done faster if he'd quit trying to educate people on Ford's engine nomenclature.
 There are lost causes, and then there's that one.  )
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
M starter is the same as 429/460.
... at least the bell is.

I'm wondering how this all began.

Did the old starter crap out, and every new one doesn't work?
Did the old one start slipping and now the replacements do too?

It's always a challenge to diagnose something over the internet.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
The M's used different starters than the 385 series (Engines/Starters), and I think that's because the flywheel is ~3/8" further aft on a 385 than it is on an M.  But, the more that I think about it I doubt they've been giving him an M's starter.  Not three times.

He insists that the flywheel is good, but who knows?

Yes, it is hard to diagnose sight-unseen.  But, this one may not be unseen for too long.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
Thank you for reminding me about that great spacer drawing you shared.

That had slipped my mind, as well as the issues fitting a manual gearbox behind the 335 series engines.

 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Well, that wasn't my intent, but it did cross my mind.  

But, for those that might be wondering what we are talking about, see the page here: Driveline/Transmissions/Manual Transmissions/ZF5 and the tab on ZF5 Behind A 351M Or 400.  It came about when I was installing a ZF5 behind Dad's 351M, which was written up, exhaustively, on FTE.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Bruno2
Son un Law was interested, but my Daughter doesn't like yhe idea of no back doors. So, it's a wash on that one.

After communicating more it sounds as though the threads are stripped out of the bellhousing.  The starter needs to be tightened back down every few days. The C6 bell being aluminum is a perfect application for the helicoil. However, it's no longer a concern because of lack of interest.

However, my sister called wanting to know how much her friends 81 F250 that runs and drives is worth? The Lord knows I dont need another truck ,but...
Whitey: 1996 F 250 XL CCLB 4X4 7.3 DI ZF5 (The Work Horse) Lots of power mods
Whitey Jr: AKA Jr 1982 F 150 CCLB 4X4 351W C6 (Jr Work Horse) respectable power, but not over the top
The Bronco: 1987 Bronco XLT 351W C6 (needs work) Lots of off road mods and plenty of power mods
The Dodge: 2006 Ram 2500 CCSB 4X4 5.9 HO Cummins (The reliable ride that cant keep an AC in itself) (5th AC go around almost complete)
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Re: 351W Starter Issues

Gary Lewis
Administrator
81 F250 - with a 400?  

But, why didn't you tell about all of today's starter issues that Kris had?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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