2wd to 4wd conversion

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2wd to 4wd conversion

Edward Michael
This post was updated on .
Considering on this upgrade to the 85 F350 Crewcab 460 4spd.  
Keeping 4spd or upgrade to zf5.
Application is tow/hauling truck on mountain roads & slow lane highway in sun, rain, mud & snow.

The donor truck is an 85 F350 long bed, single cab, 460 automatic.

Any input?  Thanks.
85 F350 Crewcab 2wd 460 manual4spd
85 F250 Extcab 4wd 460 auto
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
What year is the donor?
Does your truck have front leaf springs?

Do you want to go to an automatic, or are you going to find a 4x4 manual gearbox?

If swapping the automatic do you have the whole truck, or will you need to find a steering column, kick down linkage, pedal assembly, cooler lines, etc...?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Edward Michael
I'm not sure why, but I got myself confused.  So, let me restate what I think the question is:

You have a 2wd '85 F350 Crewcab w/a 460 and a 4-speed, and want to convert it to a 4wd and maybe a ZF5, but if not retain the 4-speed.  And you have a 4wd 85 F350 long bed, single cab, 460 automatic as the donor.

If I have that right, and reading between the lines on what Jim asked, I believe that both trucks have leaf springs as they are F350's.  In that case, the front axles should swap  But, I think the issues are:

Transmission: You will have to have a different transmission as the transfer case bolts to the back of the transmission and there's no place for it to do so on a 2wd transmission.  So, why not go to a ZF5 at the same time?  It will also take a different clutch due to the larger spline on the ZF, and you will need to replace the throwout bearing, clutch plate, and release arm as well.

Transmission Cover: You will need the taller transmission cover from a truck with either a ZF5 or E4OD as the cover you have now won't clear the tall ZF.

Axles: You need to check the axle ratios on your two trucks.  If they are the same then you are fine,
 but if different you will need to swap rear axles as well since the front and rear axles must match.  You can find the axle codes here: http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/axle-ratios.html

Rear Transmission Support: The ZF is about 1" longer than your T-19, so you will either need the proper crossmember for a ZF, which accomodates the extra length and bolts into the original holes, or you will have to drill new holes.  However, that isn't easy on the top holes as there is little room to get between the frame rails in order to drill straight up, and the cab is so close you can't get bolts in there.
  If your rear cab bolts aren't rusted too badly you can pull them and raise the rear of the cab a bit to get enough room to work, but it isn't easy and the proper crossmember would be better.

Backup Light Switch: The ZF has a different connector than the T-19 for the backup light switch,
 so when you get the ZF be sure to get the wire harness for it as well.  (And the clutch, pressure plate,
 throwout bearing, and release arm if you can.)

You should be able to use the transfer case and its shift linkage from the donor truck, as well as the front axle and driveshaft.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

85lebaront2
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In reply to this post by Edward Michael
Unfortunately, you are going to run into what I looked at. Your truck, like mine has twin I-beams with king pins and rides on big coil springs and due to the layout, if you put the twin traction beams you would need to attach the leaf springs and hangers. To use a live axle, same if you use a leaf spring style like the later (up through 1997) trucks used. The best design would be like the Dodges use, coil springs, track bar and radius arms, problem being, Dodge and GM run the 4WD front shaft down the right rather than left side and since you would no longer be on a pivoted axle half, the spring rate would need to be lower.

You might do some research into what is offered aftermarket for suspension options, me, if I did it would be to try to keep the coil springs.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Ok, so that's what Jim was getting at?  My apologies.  I didn't realize that it would have coil springs.
 I assumed since the F250HD has leaf springs that an F350 would as well.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

NotEnoughTrucks
In reply to this post by ArdWrknTrk
One option to the front axle dilemma would be to use the coil sprung solid axle from a late model SD truck. I have a scrapped 2006 F250 SD and that is exactly what I have been contemplating. Those leaf springs sure don't ride nice! The only downside is the bolt pattern strays from the 8X6.5 we know and love. Probably best to swap the rear diff as well.
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Gary, as you can see the first post has been edited, so there is more for me to work with.
But (of course) I forgot to check the notify me box.
So....
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Jim - Now I see why I was confused as to why you were confused.  I missed that the original post was edited after you posted.  Duh!  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
It's a lot of work to swap from coils to leafs.
Alignment is critical.

And you need a a 4x4 gearbox plus the driveshafts.
I do not know/think the C6 + adapter and transfer case is anything close to the length of a T-19 + adapter & TC.

If it is as long as I suspect then you are going to be dropping a few bills at the driveline shop.

Personally I would never go to the later metric lug pattern.
Though I've considered getting a E-series van rear for the disc brakes.
They kept the old lug pattern, but had different frame width, so perches need to be moved.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Ford F834
Administrator
In reply to this post by Edward Michael
I will refrain from commenting on the technical aspect of a leaf spring TTB swap since I have not actually done one, but... I recently did the *much* easier direct bolt in F150 4x4 conversion and my take-away lesson is that it is a really big job that I would probably not do again unless it was for a VERY special truck.

An older crew cab might very well be worth it, since 4x4 crew cabs are few and far between. However, if you are going to go through the effort of converting it, my strong recommendation would be to not mess around with a TTB. Source a Dana 60 straight axle and install it using a reverse shackle kit. They make them now that fit our frame horns and that is as close as you are going to get to a bolt in mount. It will be a better stronger truck with worlds less headache, but considerably more expensive because of the D60 axle prices. Locating a F350 straight axle ZF-5 donor would be ideal.

In the for-what-it's-worth department, diesel guys can swap a 4x4 ZF-5 into a T19 or a C6 truck with no modifications needed to either driveshaft. The 460 ZF is identical except for the gear ratios and slightly different bellhousing holes (if you look at a diesel ZF you can even see slight traces where the 460 holes would be). The 460 guys may correct me, but I suspect they can be ZF swapped without driveshaft modifications also.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
My 460 truck was always 4x4 coming with a T-19 and a BW 1356 *slip yoke* transfer case.

The Zf-5 fit right in, needing only the floor pan and the proper 1 1/4" 10 spline clutch.
I swapped the original T-19 transfer case linkage and stick to the Zf so i did not have to mount the later range selector stick in the side of the tunnel.

But I kept the TTB in my 250 (for now)
A D60 (350) front axle uses a double cardan driveshaft and needs a different yoke on the front of the transfer case.

Between a diesel and 460 bellhousing only the top two bolt holes are the same.
The diesel bell also is not drilled to accept a starter, because the diesel starter mounts to an adapter plate that is not present on the 460.

Bill can elaborate on the coil v/ leaf situation.
My truck has always had leafs, and a D60 will have nothing to hold it in place without them.
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Yep, I swapped a ZF5 into Dad's truck and used the driveshafts that were on the C6.  Retained the NP208 and that meant the shafts fit right back.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

ArdWrknTrk
Administrator
But your truck has a fixed yoke and slip shaft, correct?
 Jim,
Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with a Holley 80508 and Performer intake.
Too much other stuff to mention.
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

85lebaront2
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
Since you have a 4WD same year truck, then you could probably do it. As Jim pointed out, alignment is critical. The twin traction beams use leaf springs that actually twist as they deflect so the mounting point for the rear on the spring is a critical spot as it determines the location of the axle's outer end. I suspect the inner pivots mount the same as the twin I-beams do. After that, you will in all probability have to remove the coil spring bucket and transfer the shock tower from the other frame.

By having both trucks, you at least can compare the parts and see what is different and also get the spacer blocks and axle bolts along with any other differences in the rear.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile

"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Rembrant
In reply to this post by Ford F834
Ford F834 wrote
I recently did the *much* easier direct bolt in F150 4x4 conversion and my take-away lesson is that it is a really big job that I would probably not do again unless it was for a VERY special truck.
Hey Jon,

You did this swap on your 81? If yes, I don't think I was aware that you had. I was searching for info on the swap and found this thread (that's what forums are for, right?>..lol).

I was talking to a guy yesterday that says he has everything for the swap, and cheap too. It all looks to me like pretty straight forward plug-N-play parts, but your comments above are kinda making it sound like bad news...

Care to share?...


1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Ford F834
Administrator
Cory, I did indeed convert my 81 from a 2wd to 4x4. It is not hard to do at all,it’s just that the parts are very heavy and awkward to work with. It really helps to have the whole donor, or access to one, since there are a lot of little details besides the obvious. I took the easy way out and kept the narrower 2wd rear leaf springs (instead of drilling out the rivets and switching the shackle hangers to the 3” found on 4x4). That’s a decision you will want to make for yourself. I did need the rear lift blocks, wider spring plates and U bolts from the donor. You can read more about my whole project in my build thread here, and my old thread on FTE has more of the swap details:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1486376-1981-straight-six-manual-4x4-project.html?styleid=26

http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/1981-straight-six-manual-4x4-project-td1312.html

I certainly don’t mean to discourage anyone from doing the swap. I just want folks to understand that it’s a lot more work than it looks like from the armchair. If it’s a nice truck... then go for it!!! I did this swap on a beater, and I would have been better off just finding one since regular cab long bed isn’t anything too special. Sure has been nice to have now that it’s done though 🙂
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Rembrant
Ford F834 wrote
Cory, I did indeed convert my 81 from a 2wd to 4x4. It is not hard to do at all,it’s just that the parts are very heavy and awkward to work with. It really helps to have the whole donor, or access to one, since there are a lot of little details besides the obvious.
Jon it just occurred to me that you've done both a 4x4 swap, and shortened a frame...they're a couple big accomplishments in the old truck modification category!

I've located everything for this swap...it's just a matter if I want to do it or not. One guy about an hour from here that specializes in Ford truck parts says he has everything needed. It would mostly all be from 1987-1996 trucks, but he does still have some Bullnose parts scattered around.

I've also found a complete truck for a potential full swap. I'd much rather do it this way...like you said, to have everything all together. The whole works. Going to check it out today and see what the scoop is on it.

The swap, technically speaking, seems pretty easy. However, I get it...the stuff is heavy and awkward. I would most certainly do this at my work where I have access to a forklift and overhead lifts. I did my 5spd swap at home, on the floor, with all four of my 2wd tires on the floor, and I'm paying for it now with shoulder troubles...lol. The older I get, the better I was!


1994 F150 4x2 Flareside. 5.0 w/MAF, 4R70W, stock.
1984 F150 4X2 Flareside. Mild 302 w/ 5spd. Sold.
1980 F150 4X4 Flareside. 300i6 w/ 5spd. Sold in 2021.
1980 F100 4X2 Flareside. 351w/2bbl w/NP435. Sold in 1995

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
One thing easily forgotten is the transmission cover.  Yes, you can cut a hole in your floor, but that's not the way to do it, and unless your 2wd truck is an auto you'll probably have no bolt-on tranny cover.  So that's one of the little details that a parts truck gives you.

Another is the wiring for the 4wd indicator on the dash.  
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Ford F834
Administrator
In reply to this post by Rembrant
Cory, a donor truck is extremely helpful, but the other edge of that sword is the logistics of getting rid of the remains. In my case it had to be able to roll and steer so the junkyard guys could retrieve it on their rollback. It didn’t fully double the work but almost... since I had to put the 2wd stuff back under the donor. The best of both worlds would be access to one you could tear apart and leave. A fresh junkyard specimen kind of gives you that, but you need a comprehensive list. Also junkyard driveshafts are usually ruined, at least the rear one. If you want to do the rear spring swap, getting the hangers off in the junkyard would require some good battery operated drills, sharp metal chisels and a lot of time.
SHORT BED 4-DOOR DIESEL: 1986 F350 4x4 under construction-- 7.3 IDIT ZF5+GVOD

STRAIGHT SIX 4X4: 1981 F150 2wd to 4x4-- 300 I6 close ratio diesel T19, hydroboost brakes, Saginaw steering

BIG F: 1995 F-Superduty under construction— converting to 6.9L IDI diesel ZF5+DNE2
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Re: 2wd to 4wd conversion

Gary Lewis
Administrator
Why not buy a running 4wd and swap, then sell a running 2wd?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile

Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker & 10.25 Sterling/Trutrac, Blue Top & Borgeson, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI

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